The Evangelist of Golf / George Bahto

[Adam G]

Reprint is orderable. https://www.doakgolf.com/product/the-evangelist-of-golf-by-george-bahto/

[Buck Wolter]

There goes my retirement plan

[Mark McKeever]

Damn, I should have sold mine..

[Ben Malach]

So excited for this, I have read this book multiple times. When I have had access to it. I consider it probably the gold standard in architectural history. As it's approachable but yet wonderfully deep.


I wish that George had continued to be here to see the blossoming of the appreciation for C.B.'s work and the recreation of the Lido. Also selfishly it might have given him time to complete his book on C.B's protege Seth Raynor. Which continues to be one of the great what ifs for me in the world of golf architectural literary cannon.

[PCCraig]

Even though I already own a copy of the original, I went ahead and bought another copy of the new edition. Happy to support the re-print.

[Tommy Williamsen]

So excited for this, I have read this book multiple times. When I have had access to it. I consider it probably the gold standard in architectural history. As it's approachable but yet wonderfully deep.


I wish that George had continued to be here to see the blossoming of the appreciation for C.B.'s work and the recreation of the Lido. Also selfishly it might have given him time to complete his book on C.B's protege Seth Raynor. Which continues to be one of the great what ifs for me in the world of golf architectural literary cannon.

Not George but still good.


https://back9press.com/pages/raynor

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Even though I already own a copy of the original, I went ahead and bought another copy of the new edition. Happy to support the re-print.

Likewise. I can loan the second edition out without making the loanee sign a form.    Looking forward to it.

[John Mayhugh]

Really glad this is being reprinted. I had an extra copy that I gave to a friend, and now I'm able to have a backup.

[Tom_Doak]

I only had one copy of it myself. 


Fortunately I knew the copyright holder, so we could do the reprint.

[Michael Chadwick]

I recently finished reading the reprinted edition for the first time, and the details--particularly in the chapters devoted to NGLA--are terrific. It helped flesh out better context behind Macdonald's autobiography.


Two immediate questions came to mind:


1) Does anyone know of a good resource online for exploring 1920s-40s aerials of Long Island? I'd be interested in poking around, especially if there are images of the original Deepdale and Links Club.


2) This might deserve a separate thread if any historians have more info, but the brief chapter on Glen Head's Womens National Golf Club, founded by Marion Hollins and later acquired (then sold off) by the Creek Club, interested me. Bahto makes a comment that Hollins took her own scouting trip to the UK in anticipation of the club being developed, which has been referenced elsewhere on the DG by Wayne Morrison and more recently Bret Lawrence. Bahto's phrasing implies that she was in search of ideal holes for a woman's game, which may have resulted in an entirely different list of ideal/template holes selected from the UK classics. Were any specific holes from her trips noted anywhere? It'd be interesting to compare differences between Macdonald's ideals and Hollins, if she ever produced such a list.   

[Charlie Goerges]

I recently finished reading the reprinted edition for the first time, and the details--particularly in the chapters devoted to NGLA--are terrific. It helped flesh out better context behind Macdonald's autobiography.


Two immediate questions came to mind:


1) Does anyone know of a good resource online for exploring 1920s-40s aerials of Long Island? I'd be interested in poking around, especially if there are images of the original Deepdale and Links Club.


2) This might deserve a separate thread if any historians have more info, but the brief chapter on Glen Head's Womens National Golf Club, founded by Marion Hollins and later acquired (then sold off) by the Creek Club, interested me. Bahto makes a comment that Hollins took her own scouting trip to the UK in anticipation of the club being developed, which has been referenced elsewhere on the DG by Wayne Morrison and more recently Bret Lawrence. Bahto's phrasing implies that she was in search of ideal holes for a woman's game, which may have resulted in an entirely different list of ideal/template holes selected from the UK classics. Were any specific holes from her trips noted anywhere? It'd be interesting to compare differences between Macdonald's ideals and Hollins, if she ever produced such a list.

For question 1 I used to use the Stonybrook University site: https://guides.library.stonybrook.edu/c.php?g=35399&p=224887


The various County GIS sites might also have some resources


Pretty sure I'm forgetting something, hopefully someone else can chime in.

[Colin Sheehan]

Michael,


Here's a slideshow I assembled years ago with a number of aerials including, for Deepdale, Oakland, Lido and Links.


https://goo.gl/photos/wwArnTF9n4WVY23u7

[Cal Carlisle]

I recently finished reading the reprinted edition for the first time, and the details--particularly in the chapters devoted to NGLA--are terrific. It helped flesh out better context behind Macdonald's autobiography.


Two immediate questions came to mind:


1) Does anyone know of a good resource online for exploring 1920s-40s aerials of Long Island? I'd be interested in poking around, especially if there are images of the original Deepdale and Links Club.


2) This might deserve a separate thread if any historians have more info, but the brief chapter on Glen Head's Womens National Golf Club, founded by Marion Hollins and later acquired (then sold off) by the Creek Club, interested me. Bahto makes a comment that Hollins took her own scouting trip to the UK in anticipation of the club being developed, which has been referenced elsewhere on the DG by Wayne Morrison and more recently Bret Lawrence. Bahto's phrasing implies that she was in search of ideal holes for a woman's game, which may have resulted in an entirely different list of ideal/template holes selected from the UK classics. Were any specific holes from her trips noted anywhere? It'd be interesting to compare differences between Macdonald's ideals and Hollins, if she ever produced such a list.

For question 1 I used to use the Stonybrook University site: https://guides.library.stonybrook.edu/c.php?g=35399&p=224887


The various County GIS sites might also have some resources


Pretty sure I'm forgetting something, hopefully someone else can chime in.

In the book "Champion in a Man's World", by David Outerbridge, pages 90-92, it discusses how Hollins left for the UK in search of ideal holes for Women's National Golf and Tennis Club. With the assistance of Cecil Leitch, she played over 20 courses. She documented the trip with notes, sketches, photos and movies.


She turned these materials over to Devereaux Emmet who was to design the course. The first hole was reminiscent of the 7th hole at the new course at Walton Heath. The 4th was a copy of the 11th at Northampton. The Principal's Nose made an appearance on the 17th. The 12th hole at Least women's National was fashioned after the 3rd at Mid-Surrey.


She and Emmet also looked for inspiration at courses on a Long Island. The 5th at Women's was similar to the 5th at her home course, Westbrook. The 8th was an adaptation of the 5th at NGLA. Lastly, the 11th was a close approximation to the 13th at Piping Rock.


The author then explains that rather than use her monster tee shots, she used US Champion Alexa Sterling's 175 yard carry as the fair but testing standard for tee placement.


The book is very well researched and an interesting read. A great addition to any golf library. It's kind of hard to believe there has never been any kind of documentary or movie made about this remarkable woman.

[Michael Chadwick]

Charlie, Colin, Cal--all of these are terrific replies. Thank you so much. I'll enjoy looking over those aerials during the holidays, and will keep an eye out on getting a copy of the book as well. Appreciate it!

[Bret Lawrence]

Adding in a couple of stories on Women’s National Golf & Tennis Club.  The first story was written by Marion Hollins.  (I borrowed these photos from Sven’s Re-engineering Raynor thread.)


Golf Illustrated., January 1923:










Golf Illustrated., March 1924:









I use the Nassau County GIS viewer to find 1926 aerial photographs from Nassau County, New York:
https://lrv.nassaucountyny.gov/map/
On the right hand side select: “Layers” tab
Then click the second box down to view 1926 Nassau County aerials.


Bret

[Jonathan Cummings]

I'm too lazy to look it up but wasn't Hollis also behind the original Bethesda CC in Bethesda, MD?  I know it was originally (1930s?) intended to be the "women's" answer to nearby Burning Tree but don't remember the details.

[Bernie Bell]

I'm too lazy to look it up but wasn't Hollis also behind the original Bethesda CC in Bethesda, MD?  I know it was originally (1930s?) intended to be the "women's" answer to nearby Burning Tree but don't remember the details.

I think the original 9 were done by Fred Findlay, and a second 9 later added by a local pro, Al Jamison, who may have been the pro at Bethesda at the time.  Jamison worked with Ed Ault when Ault was starting out, and I think Findlay mentored both.  Arthur Hills with MacDonald & Sons redid the entire works in the 90s.

[Jonathan Cummings]

Bernie - Don't dispute anything you say but I thought the overall vision was a woman (Hollis?).  If I remember correctly she would land her plane on the property to survey progress.  I could be way off.....

[Bret Lawrence]

JC,


I don’t think it was Marion Hollins at Women’s National Country Club in Bethesda, Md in 1929-1930.  Marion Hollins was living on the west coast and was somewhere between Cypress Point and Pasatiempo at that point in her life.  I think the Women’s National Country Club was more socially focused than golf focused from the few articles I have seen.  If you search Womens National County Club on loc.gov newspapers, you can find several stories on the club.  I am including one of the early articles I found (right column):





Coincidentally, Miss Edith Cummings, the 1923 Women’s Amateur champ was a founding member of Women’s National Golf and Tennis Club while Edith Mae Cummings, an author was a founding member at Women’s National Country Club.  Any relation to these famous Cummings’?


Bret

[John Handley]

Thank you......






reading this thread cost me $260.




Of course I had to go on Doak's site and purchase the The Evangelist of Golf as well as The Life and Work of Dr. Alister MacKenzie. 


I am playing Moortown and Alwoodley next July so figured why not!

[Phil Carlucci]

1) Does anyone know of a good resource online for exploring 1920s-40s aerials of Long Island? I'd be interested in poking around, especially if there are images of the original Deepdale and Links Club.

Nassau County's government website has a "Land Record Viewer" with aerial photos from 1926 and 1950.  The website is terribly clunky to use but the photography is pretty good.  Unfortunately those particular dates mean any short-lived courses that came and went during the Depression era (there are many) aren't captured.  But anything built before 1926 can be seen, some better than others.

https://lrv.nassaucountyny.gov/map/

[Jonathan Cummings]

JC,


I don’t think it was Marion Hollins at Women’s National Country Club in Bethesda, Md in 1929-1930.  Marion Hollins was living on the west coast and was somewhere between Cypress Point and Pasatiempo at that point in her life.  I think the Women’s National Country Club was more socially focused than golf focused from the few articles I have seen.  If you search Womens National County Club on loc.gov newspapers, you can find several stories on the club.  I am including one of the early articles I found (right column):





Coincidentally, Miss Edith Cummings, the 1923 Women’s Amateur champ was a founding member of Women’s National Golf and Tennis Club while Edith Mae Cummings, an author was a founding member at Women’s National Country Club.  Any relation to these famous Cummings’?


Bret

Informative as always Bret.  Related?  Likely not as I come from a long line of Dis Extinguished New England farmers! :-)

[John Connolly]

In the book, Geoge Bahto included his own drawing of CBM's version of Shinnecock. Other graphics of his routing I have come across include a 1930 aerial that was unique in that it had the outgoing CBM/Raynor course and Flynn's coming up alongside it and lastly a drawing by Flynn with his routing layed over the CBMs/Raynor course - found in Wayne's Morrison's book, "The Nature Faker." Are there any other routings of CBM's Shinny available for public consumption?

[Paul Rudovsky]

Two immediate questions came to mind:


1) Does anyone know of a good resource online for exploring 1920s-40s aerials of Long Island? I'd be interested in poking around, especially if there are images of the original Deepdale and Links Club.


Michael--question should also apply to courses in Queens, just west of Nassau County.  Prior to the end of WWII, golf in Queens was as good as golf was in Nassau...taxes, increased land values, and demand for homes from returning GI's and their new spouses after WW II made Queens golf totally uneconomic and it basically had disappeared or moved east to Nassau and Suffolk counties by the mid 1950's (except for a few still remaining NYC munis)