Bethpage 14th

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

I am very saddened to report that this hole has been absolutley ravaged, ruined, and destroyed.  The green used to be 29 yards deep with an actual 18 yard depth--there was an interesting slope in the back with a cool fall off.  The new construction includes a Rees bunker on the left.  This bunker will be a good photo, but rough on the sidehill was much more difficult for recovery.  The green has a cool front left pin which could have been created without the new bunker.  The big change is the extreme expansion of the green--from poststamp to behemouth--it now features a back tier that is about 8 yards in depth with a width of aproximately 23 yards.   The front left was expanded 5 yards--effectively 3 yards for pinnable locations.  Overall, the green is now 47 yards deep and no longer has the scary falloff visual that always made players come up short--actually the worse miss in the past.  I have been told that the plan is for an elevated tee across the service road that will make the hole about 215 yards.  This brilliant plan will give the Black 4 par 3's of the same length.  Nothing like good balance among the holes!

[HamiltonBHearst]

Didn't Phil Young like the changes?  

[Phil_the_Author]

Hamilton, I not only like the changes, I was there when all parties were gathered to consider them.

The hole was too easy without any real risk/reward danger for any on the hole positions. As it was, with green speeds in the 13+ range for the Open, there were too few available on this hole, especially on the back side. Now, because of the changes, a much greater variety of hole locations have been created. This hole will be a greater challenge whether it plays as short as 140 or as long as 175 yards, and these distances are now available.

Consider what lengthening the green has done. The extension is across the entire back section and comes in behind the bunker on the right side of the green. As it was, this bunker was never going to come into play. Now, I would not be surprised to see the pin tucked back in there two times and definitely on Sunday. A safe play will leave a 20+ foot uphill putt that will have a good deal of break in it. It also will mean that players will have to actually be concerned about going OVER this green. In order to create the putting surface, the hill behind the green was raised and now any ball over has a severe downhill slope to contend with. A ball in any of the bunkers with this pin is very likely a bogey as no one will want to flirt with disaster over.

The bunker on the left is necessary to create a visual challenge for the pins that will be placed in the new narrow front left tongue. I do think that it might have been a better idea for it to not run the entire length of the hole on that side, but that is minor and it is a much better hole with it and presents greater challenges for both the Open and the everyday player.

By the way, the rumored new tee is not even close to becoming a reality. There are issues dealing with a huge number of trees that would have to be removed (even though it is state-run and owned environmental concerns get raised there often. That is why the long-planned sixth course never became a reality), and a tremendous amount of earth moved in to create a tee of the appropriate height.

The new green design allows for a balanced set of par-threes (yes, that has always been mentioned in the debate about how to make this a better hole) while addressing a weakness to make the 2009 Open an even greater test than the one in 2002.

On another note, a month and a half ago I mentioned that the Tillinghast Association was going to have an outing on the Red Course on August 5th and that there would be a few spots available. A number of others have now opened up and if anyone would like to join us, please email me at philwritesbooks@aol.com ASAP. We'd love to have you. It is on a first-come first-served basis.

The best part is that the Red Course is in outstanding condition, is now being given very strong consideration for hosting a major event (U.S. Amateur and/or Women's Open have been mentioned) and has been brought up to the same terrific conditions that the Black enjoys.

Look forward to hearing from you.

[Thomas_Brown]

47 yards deep?
Sounds like a different hole to me.
The old green with the front left hole location(stimping at 9 on a fast day in the 1980's) was enough for this single digit to handle.  I'm happy the Open has a found a venue in NY for Tiger, but it's sad to see this hole lost.

Alas, I'll have to play before I pass judgement.

[Phil_the_Author]

Thomas,

I apologize if you misunderstood. The GREEN is NOT 47 yards deep. The HOLE has the ability to be played from as little as 140 to as much as 175 yards.

Remember, the tee box was slightly lengthened back in the 90's and now the back of the green has been lengthened by up to 15 feet and has areas that can now be used regularly for some very good pin positions.

The front left, which came across in a straight line is now extended forward by 10+ feet in a narrow tongue. A pin can actually be set forward relative to the front bunker and choked in between the new left-side bunker. This is a great pin position.

For any old-time Bethpagers the "feel" of the hole has not been lost. The same forward tee and normal pin location just beyond the front bunker will always be a regular feature of the hole. Now there are many more options.

What I found to be the biggest change is the look and feel of the hillside behind the green. because of the addition it is much more steep and anyone who goes over will have an enormous challenge to get up and down, especially with the new pins on the back right. Under the right conditions, one can conceive of pitching from behind a bit long and carry into the right side bunker.

It is a much better hole.

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

There are issues dealing with a huge number of trees that would have to be removed (even though it is state-run and owned environmental concerns get raised there often. That is why the long-planned sixth course never became a reality),

Philip,

I never knew a sixth course had been talked about.  Where would it have been located?  Possible architects?  Was a routing ever done?

Thanks,

Geoff

[Matt_Ward]

Robert, Phil, et al:

I played the Black this past weekend and have a few general concerns which I will start with another thread. Regarding the "new" 14th hole I don't have any real love for what's been created but then again the "old" 14th certainly needed some sort of rehtinking given the general decline or falling off of hole quality.

The "huge" green does have an added aspect in providing for a fuller range of pin placements and clearly more demands on the player to get the ball even closer to the hole.

Having flexible length also should increase the challenge of the hole -- even if it's no more than a range of choices from 9-iron to 6-iron.

Regarding the "new" tee the last thing the Black needs is another morphed steroid long hole. Leaving the existing hole at its present length is more than sufficient.

I would like to see the rear portion of the grass behind the green to be cut to fairway height so that balls that get too aggressive will roll further away from the target and not be stopped by the height of the grass.

Overall, IMHO not a bad upgrade but there are other issues I have with the Black as it seeks to improve itself in other areas.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Phil  you are dead wrong about the green depth.  I walked and lasered it.  As preparation for the tournament it is very important to know green sizes.  It is an ugly 47 yard behemoth.  I liked the front extension.  However, the real solution to the hole was a simple thinning of the trees behind the green to allow for a greater wind effect.  This was not a simple easy hole when a tournament was on the line.  I am pretty certain that it did not play under par in the 2002 Open!

[Kyle Harris]

Robert,

47 yards from where to where? What do you consider front and what do you consider back?

[peter_mcknight]

The stroke average per round for the 14th in 2002 are as follows:

1st:  2.929, 34 birdies
2d:   2.877, 30 birdies
3d:   2.708, 25 birdies
4th:  3.097, 11 birdies
Week:  2.903, 100 birdies, 3d most on the course behind the 13th and 4th.

The old depth (should I use the word old) was 27 yards.

The hole locations were as follows:

1st:  front 19, right 4
2d:   front 7, right 5
3d:   front 6, 11 each from the left and right
4th:  front 12, right 4

Hope that helps with this analysis.

[Jeff Fortson]

First...  what's wrong with having a hole on a course that plays under par?  Especially when there are plenty of holes playing more than a half shot over par.  

Second...  I don't understand how people can just make changes to a hole or course such as Bethpage with such ease and confidence in what they are doing.  Do people really stop to think about how they are altering an original Tillinghast design?  How is #14 better?  Isn't "better" subjective to the individual?  I am inclined to agree with Robert that there appears to be no need for #14 to be changed.  If you need more pin loctations stop making the greens roll at 14 on the stimp.  This is truly an unsettling piece of information to come accross.

Robert, good luck this week in the NY State Open.  Wish I could be there for it!


Jeff F.

[Kyle Harris]

Jeff,

The Black hasn't really been an original Tillinghast design since the sixties. Most of the greens have shrunk (some by a lot) and the hazards are now closer to the new green lines than before.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

I stand corrected on the stroke average, but it probably would play more difficult through a simple thinning of the trees behind the green.  Those who have played the Black quite often must be aware of the usual wind encountered on the 16th and 18th tees.  The tee shot on 14 is from a higher point, but the trees tend to do a fairly good job of minimalizing the wind.   As for how the green has been measured--Front edge to back edge in relation to tee.  The US Open yardage book that I use had the green at 29 yards.  The front of the green was extended 5 yards towards the tee.  The back of the green was extended 12-13 yards.  The last time I added 29 to 5 and 13 it added up to 47.  Also, one great feature of the course was that there were a couple of breather type holes--6,7 after 5 and 13,14 after 10-12 and before 15-17.  Over the years in tournaments it was amazing how many train wrecks occurred on these breather holes.  I lost the tournament one year on the 6th.  As for 14, when people try to challenge the front for a short birdie putt, they often plug in the bank of the bunker.  I don't know one professional who thought of the 14th as a nothing hole.  There isn't a hole on the Black where a player can play brain dead golf!

[HamiltonBHearst]

Who is involved in the process when changes are made at the Black?  Does the USGA have any involvement?  the state? Rees?

Is Rees on permanent "retianer" to keep the Black a championship course? Was this a Rees idea based on a mandate? Or was this a Bernadette Castro idea that Rees approved?

[Mike_Cirba]

Jeff,

The Black hasn't really been an original Tillinghast design since the sixties. Most of the greens have shrunk (some by a lot) and the hazards are now closer to the new green lines than before.

Kyle,

Surely you're not suggesting that Rees Jones did not do a true "restoration" at BB, are you?  

[Geoffrey Childs]

Where do you all get the idea that the green pads have changed at all except for 18 (and now 14)?  

They are back out to their original sizes as best I can tell.  The bunkering is now closer to the 1938 sizes and shapes then they were in 1969 when I first saw the place.  Yes - a few bunkers are closer to the green and a couple pinch in the openings of greens but that's about it.  We went through comparisons of aerials at length in the past. This was NOT an insensitive rebuild in any way shape or form. Cut it out Mike or I won't laugh at your Fazio jokes tomorrow  

[Kyle Harris]

Geoff,

Pictures in "Reminisces of the Links" on Page 152 show some of the nature of any green shrinkage that may have occured at Bethpage.

The example cited in the book shows the 8th green in 1938 with a gallery standing ON the green surrounding the players. Compare that to the picture from 1956, where the edge of the green is significantly up the hill from where it was in 1938.

There also appears to be notable shrinkage of the Red's greens, as many of the first few seem small on the pads. I imagine this was done to reduce the amount of maintained turf during lean years for the park.

[Geoffrey Childs]

Geoff,

Pictures in "Reminisces of the Links" on Page 152 show some of the nature of any green shrinkage that may have occured at Bethpage.

The example cited in the book shows the 8th green in 1938 with a gallery standing ON the green surrounding the players. Compare that to the picture from 1956, where the edge of the green is significantly up the hill from where it was in 1938.

There also appears to be notable shrinkage of the Red's greens, as many of the first few seem small on the pads. I imagine this was done to reduce the amount of maintained turf during lean years for the park.

Kyle

I'll look at the photos tonight but I remember those well as Tom MacWood tried to use the sand on the side of the hill on 8 as an example of the bunker style and how it changed so dramatically  .

How do you know those people are standing ON the green in that old photo?  The black in 1956 was already changed a lot and you only need see that pond extension on the left that was there in 1969 when I first played.  TODAY the 8th green as 15 others at BB are at or very close to their maximal size.  On #8 the back pin locations near the bunker were reclaimed.

The red I have no idea about but I will revisit soon after 30 years.

[Kyle Harris]

Geoff,

Go back and play the Red as soon as you possibly can. I'd love to join you if you need company. Worth the trip to me.

I have no real problem with the bunkering style. If you read this thread that I started last month when Doug and I played, Phil Young puts up a nice post about all the speculation about the greens.

I should have prefaced my comments with the fact that all this IS speculation, for now. I am not one to blast or criticize the renovations or restorations, whichever they may turn out to be.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=18526;start=msg328617#msg328617

[Geoffrey Childs]

Kyle

Interesting discussion by Phil in that thread.  I've seen what's been done at WF due to Neil's photographic detective work. It's quite amazing and #'s 10 and 18 are dramatic changes on the West course.

I imagine core samples could solve the Bethpage question about green sizes.  I'll take a magnafying glass to the photos of #8 tonight.  

Thanks for directing me to that discussion.  I'd love for you to join me at the Red.

[Kyle Harris]

Unfortunately, threads like that get buried in a lot of other stuff. That post by Phil is filled with so much that you'd think it would have gotten a bit more attention.  

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

Philip,

I never knew a sixth course had been talked about.  Where would it have been located?  Possible architects?  Was a routing ever done?

Thanks,

Geoff

I am still curious about the possibility of a sixth course at Bethpage.  Does anyone have any information about it?

[jeffwarne]

Well Robert I can attest the "new" 14th wasn't a breather hole for me today as I plugged in the new bunker sand and threeputted the "new" green for double.
Course was unbelieveably soft today after the downpours yesterday(and long for us lowhitting eastenders)

[Phil_the_Author]

Geoffrey, there was talk of building a new 6th course beyond the Yellow course. In the late 60's Plans were drawn for it and construction was almost started. The project was halted by environmental concerns over the loss of the trees and the impact on Long Island nesting bird sites.

Kyle, thanks for the compliments! I have now gone quite a bit further in my research and I believe more than ever that the greens at all of Bethpage's courses shrank dramatically from the late 30's onward. There are some other photos and comparisons made to a number of Tilly designs from the same time period that I think will have us looking at the green sizes and the possibility of restoring them to where they should actually be.

Hamilton, you asked, "Who is involved in the process when changes are made at the Black?  Does the USGA have any involvement?  the state? Rees? Is Rees on permanent "retianer" to keep the Black a championship course? Was this a Rees idea based on a mandate? Or was this a Bernadette Castro idea that Rees approved?"

Before anything that might be considered a change to the Black (and the Red I might add) is done, a number of people are consulted. The additions to the 14th green, the new tee on the 5th and the new front bunker front left, were all Craig Curriers ideas.

In discussions about the course and thoughts as to areas that might be addressed, both the 5th & 14th holes were much discussed. Involved were, among others, Dave Catalano & Craig, Rees Jones, Mike Davis with the USGA and several other not-so-notables.

Not a blade of grass or a shovel of dirt was moved until a consensus agreed that the proposed change(s) would address an individual holes weakness, make it a better hole for the everyday player & the 2009 Open, be part of a long-term plan to make certain that the course will keep being considered among the best in the world and available to host national championships of any type and that it will be as close stylistically to what Tilly designed and to the challenges he built into it. (How's that for a sentence!  )

There have been several other suggestions that have not been acted on for a variety of reasons (e.g. - new 4th tee behind the 3rd green to lengthen hole by 50-60 yards) and several other minor ones (expanding and re-sculpting the chipping area behind the 10th green) that were.

Finally, There are still a few more days left for anyone that would like to join with the Tillinghast Association & friends on Friday, August 5th, on the Red Course. Please email me at philwritesbooks@aol.com ASAP.

[HamiltonBHearst]

Phil

Thank you for the detailed answer.  Can you comment on the fairway widths and height of the rough in regard to everyday play?  Do they need to be so punitive for the average golfer or is it a function of the course constantly holding regional tournaments?