[David Wigler]

Tom,

If you cannot figure out who are the Rees haters, reread this thread.  It should be pretty obvious.

I would charactorize those who continue to question Lou, Jonathan and I as deaf.  We cannot explain it any better.

HBH,

I am done arguing RC.  It is perhaps the inverse of Cascata.  Cascata's weakness are RC's strenghts.  However RC has a weakness that IMO is so glaring that it barley misses the top 100, while Cascata's weaknesses are not strong enough to pull it out.  I have explained it ad nausem at this point.

[Craig Van Egmond]

David,

     I must admit that I have a hard time believing that a course you classify as having "mediocre bunkering and average greens" should be rated in the top 100 of the maybe 7,500 modern course built since 1960. So all it takes is visual appeal and some strategy off the tee?  Where would Barona place in relation to Cascata?

[David Wigler]

Craig,

Obviously, you are right and in my attempt to extract myself from this thread and save writing time, I stopped adding qualifiers.  I thought I was making the point that the mediocre greens and average bunker work was in comparison to the other courses being considered for top 100 status.  In rereading, it is not clear that is what I was writing.  The greens and bunkering are clearly superior to more than 17,000 of the 18,000 courses in the US.  

For your second question, I am a big fan of Barona and have always felt that it belongs in the bottom third of GW's top 100.  Barona and Cascata are as different as night and day but they finish almost identically in my mind when placed against their contemporaries.  That written, if I wanted to impress a customer, Cascata would accomplish that more so then Barona and I would bet that in a random survey of GD subscribers who are allowed to play both, Cascata would win easily.

[T_MacWood]

David
I'm not a fan of blanket statements or labeling people ".....haters" just because they may disagree with an opinion. It is intellectually lazy.

I prefer the method that Mike Cirba utilized....asking you to explain your view....a view that differed with quite few. And when your explanation includes pointing out the course's use of 'lines of charm' when there doesn't appear to be anything resembling a line of charm, it is IMO legitimate to ask more questions. We all have different tastes, we will never all agree, but asking you to explain your appreciation of the architecture of this contraversial golf course - which happens to be a Rees Jones design - is no reason to characterize those curious individuals as Rees haters.

Mike Cirba was doing most of the questioning, and I wouldn't characterize him as either a Rees hater or deaf. In fact if I'm not mistaken you referred to the course at one time as an abortion. That is why I found your characterization curious.

[Patrick_Mucci]

David Wigler,

How is it that some of the most vocal critics and detractors of Shadow Creek and Cascata have never seen or played those golf courses ?

What amount of credibility do the words of someone who's never seen those golf courses carry ?

I would think, NONE, yet they speak loudly.

I'm told that a professor in a law school advised his students that if they had the facts on their side, to argue the facts...
And, if they had the law on their side, to argue the law,
And, if they had neither, then, they should argue loudly.

Tom MacWood,

The betting window is still open.

For a guy who complains about bar room brawls, you don't mind instigating them by making false allegations about me being/posting as HamiltonBHearst, and then, when challenged to bet on it, you weasel out.  The betting window will remain open, perpetually, on this issue.  Any time you have the courage of your convictions, just step up to the plate with a certified check or cashier's check, and I'll take the bet.
The thought of collecting your money, and proving you wrong again, is quite appealing.  

P.S. Cash will also be acceptable.

Mike Cirba,

So.... you can now determine everything about a golf course from satellite photos.  You must have taken TEPaul's and Tom MacWood's crash course.

I would have thought that you would have reserved drawing conclusions about a golf course until after you've played it.

[T_MacWood]

Pat/LIRR/Hamilton
There is a difference between asking someone to explain or elaborate on their architectural opinion and drawing your own definitive conclusions.

One of the problems that you have (and others) is your inability to articulate your golf architectural opinions...which leads to name calling, brough beating and the use of courtroom tactics.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

Thanks for pointing out one of my problems, my inability to articulate my golf architectural opinions.  That's a rather novel accusation.

I can see how you would conclude this, as I've taken a position never to evaluate a golf course I haven't seen or played.   Something that's standard practice for you.

One of our differences is the arrogance you display by holding yourself out to be an expert on golf courses that you've never played, like Yale, Bethpage, Hollywood, Atlantic, Baltusrol, Shadow Creek, Cascata, ect., etc..  

With regard to your complaining about decorum,
You're like the kid who calls other kids names, and then when he gets his nose blodied tells the teacher that the other kids started it.

You continue to behave like the kid hiding behind the chain link fence, and calling another kid names, when all you have to do to settle the issue is place your bet.

Why are you afraid to stand behind your allegation ?
You apparently don't mind continuing to make it,
Why weasel out of committing your cash to back it up ?

I would think that proving me wrong, and putting my money in your pocket would be very satisfying to you, so I can't understand why are you so afraid to back up your allegation with some cash ?

Unless, you like to call people names from behind that chain link fence, and in that case, I understand.  
It's that old Y chromosome deficiency rearing its head again.

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick;

Did I "determine everything", or did I ask David or Lou to point out what I couldn't see and thought should be apparent.  

On another thread, David was kind enough to describe one of the holes as well as why he thought the aerial was unable to adequately portray it.  

I hope to play Cascata, perhaps this winter, and I now have a much better idea of what to expect due to this discussion.  I'm not sure I'll like it as much as David...I sense that we both focus on different areas when evaluating courses, but then again...we both positively RAVED about The Kingsley Club, so...who knows?  

Not every question about Rees Jones is an attack.  Speaking of which, Patrick...you should really try to get up to play Olde Kinderhook near Albany.  That goes for David Wigler and others here, as well.  

I think you guys would really enjoy it and there's a course that I clearly believe is a modern Top 100...in fact, I'd say clearly Top 50.

Now, Pat...would an anti-Rees-bigot make that claim?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Criba,

I'm on to your devious ploys  
Throwing us a bone every now and then.

I'd like to play Old Kinderhook, perhaps later this summer.

Just because you like Old Kinderhook doesn't mean that your bias is under control                            

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick;

No, but admitting that I do to you does.  

[Matt_Ward]

David W:

Mea culpa on my part for pushing your words on Cascata to a higher level than you're prepared to offer. However, I still don't buy the argument that Cascata is among the top 100 modern courses in America. Yes, it's good but I see it outside of that grouping.

By the way the nonsense about people being pro / con Rees Jones is really silly and in so many ways juvenile. I rate courses -- not architects -- as most others do. Just because a course is designed by architect "X" doesn't really influence me and I believe from I've read doesn't influence a number of others.

David, my only suggestion is that when you speak about Cascata you highlight with specificity the key holes or what you believe makes it so grand. I don't doubt the course has a few holes of top quality but on the whole the layout is more about mega $$$ being pumped into a difficult site and the wherewithal of a skilled architect to transform a rock face of a cliff into a high end gambler's playground. Nothing more -- nothing less.

Let me say this -- Olde Kinderhook is clearly beyond Cascata and until it gets some long overdue recognition I can say candidly that Cascata will have to wait it's turn.

[Paul_Turner]

Patrick

I'm curious; which, original, Rees Jones courses have you played?

[T_MacWood]

Pat/LIRR/Hamilton
Oh yes....I'm a real expert on Atlantic, Shadow Creek and Cascata...I made one comment about Atlantic three odd  years ago - including a direct quote from the developer - claiming the site was wonderful (you disagreed with me and evidently the developer, if I remember correctly you were writing in all caps at the time)....I don't recall ever saying anything about Shadow Creek....what did I say about Cascata other than my breif post on the photos and my 'Line of Smarm' comment...that was some of my best material. Was the smarmy comment out of line?

The only comment I made about Yale was bringing up the 18th's hillock as a ground feature that might mimick a tree....Geoffrey C took me to task for that comment...but I never claimed to be an expert. Regarding Bethpage, Baltusrol and Hollywood....you consider documentation of changes to be a judgement of merit....I consider it sharing information and public service. I will admit that I am an admirer of Tillinghast and Travis and believe their best work should be preserved and protected.

[Dan Kelly]

Something to ponder:

Which of these has the greatest life expectancy:

1. Rees Jones?

2. Cigar Aficionado magazine?

3. This thread?

[Mike_Cirba]

Dan Kelly;

I think GCA should introduce a new "purgatory" rule for contributors who commit the most grievous wastes of Ran's disk space by posting the most irrelevant, inflammatory, inane comments and as punishment, force them to read this thread from beginning to end.  That oughtta put them out of commission for a few years!

Oh wait...I'm not sure I'd want my own posts to be judged against that criterion.  

Interestingly, I'd love to see the total number of posts that have been generated by Rees Jones courses, when one thinks back to threads on The Bridge, Hollywood revisions, etc.  

Rees may actually be able to claim that he's the most "viewed" man on the Internet, similar to that buxom gal (forget her name as I'm hardly the type who would find interest in such tawdry matters! ) who makes a similar claim based on the number of hits to her website.

If generating interest, reaction, and discussion of one's work is indicative of doing groundbreaking work, then perhaps Rees Jones really IS the architectural genius that Patrick Mucci claims he is!    

Seriously, Rees has worked on a lot of courses, both original and redesigns, ranging from the horrific to the sensitive and  sublime, with the majority falling into the middling, somewhat disappointingly predictable and banal realm, in my opinion.  

One thing seems clear, however; he has a "style" that seems to be a flashpoint for discussion amongst architectural addicts.  

[Paul_Turner]

Ms Canyon?  From memory, I think her "global" expansion even reached me and my mates, as students, in Liverpool!

[Mike_Cirba]

Paul;

I expected much better from such a staid, upstanding, "well-respected"* British gentleman as yourself.

I'm sorely disappointed!  


* with apologies to Ray Davies

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Cirba,

Cindy Margolis is the name that you've pretended to have forgotten.

As I said earlier, I'm on to your ploys  

[TEPaul]

Dan Kelly (tm);

Post #591 is good--very funny!

Even being the accomplished betting man that I am I wouldn't touch that one on a bet.

Actually the funniest thing of all is 590 and change posts to this energizer bunny thread. Here's hoping this thread has set a record long ago that never gets broken.

[David Wigler]

Matt and Mike - I will do my best to get to Olde Kinderhook this year.  If it is better than Cascata, it does not mean Cascata is not a top 100, just that another Rees course is getting overlooked.

[Matt_Ward]

David W:

I can't speak to the issue of the total number of Rees Jones courses you've played but I will say this -- Cascata is a fine course but I would not include it among the top 100 modern because there are a few "new" Rees courses that would merit inclusion before it. They would include:

Olde Kinderhook
Nantucket
The Bridge
Ocean Forest

If you should head east in the near future let me know because I'd like to play with you and get your "immediate" reaction!  

P.S. Anyone who truly loves The Kingsley Club can't be that bad!

[David Wigler]

Matt,

I have played zero of the four you mentioned.  You are on next trip out east.

[ForkaB]

#600

I think we should start a pool as to who should and will be post #666.  All proceeds donated to one's favorite charity, including GCA.

[GeoffreyC]

RIch- no question about it.  It must be Jeff Williams for post 666!

[David Wigler]

Rich,

I think this thread is dead until the next time I (Or anyone else) play's a Rees Jones course and is dumb enough to admit they like it.

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