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Kyle Harris

Re:You are Seth Raynor's grandson
« Reply #25 on: July 16, 2005, 05:50:11 PM »
Tom,

In lieu of 18 at St. Andrews, how about 7 at Royal Liverpool (was that the hole you mentioned earlier at Hoylake)?

13 at North Berwick West seems like a good candidate as well.

Brian_Gracely

Re:You are Seth Raynor's grandson
« Reply #26 on: July 16, 2005, 08:53:01 PM »
While it frustrates me to no end that Raynor is so highly praised for essentially building replicas of replicas, I will give him credit for choosing replica holes that could be built anywhere because they do not rely heavily on an outside element (wind, ocean, etc.) to make them challenging.  Essentially they are all about accurancy with different length shots.  

But if Seth III did not get his calls returned by the Seth Raynor Society, I'd have to suggest:

1) 13th at Muirfield - slightly angled approach to a narrow (long-wise), back-to-front, side-sloping green.

2) 3rd at Lost Dunes - Uneasiness off the tee because the green is slightly obscured by the carry-rough.  The green is world class from every direction.

3) Modified Par3 that essentially takes the approach on #1 or #12 at Oakmont.  Nobody seems to be front to back slopes greens on Par3s.  Make it a longer Par3 with firm ground that would allow it to bounce on to a front pin.

4) #6 at Tobacco Road, because it does a great job of utilizing about a 120* look at the green from different tees.

5) #11 at Cuscowilla (even without the lake).  The green reminds me of #13 at Prestwick.  Something that incorporates a severe green like that, from a short, medium or long distance.

5a) #4 at Warren Course.  Talk about a hole that could be built anywhere, on any ground.  It's all about a great green on a short hole.  It reminds me of one of those old baseball gloves from the 1930s (without a catching web), with all the rolls and ridges and run-offs.    

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:You are Seth Raynor's grandson
« Reply #27 on: July 16, 2005, 09:17:46 PM »
Brian:  Thanks for including one of my holes, though it would not be one of the four I'd pick.

However, I feel obliged to point out that Seth Raynor didn't pick his four holes to start with ... Mr. Macdonald picked them for him.

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You are Seth Raynor's grandson
« Reply #28 on: July 16, 2005, 10:20:42 PM »
4th at Memphis CC (140 yards)
13th at Carnoustie (170 yards)
13th at Hill Course - French Lick Springs (225 yards)
17th at Pebble Beach Golf Links (200 yards)


Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Smokey_Pot_Bunker

Re:You are Seth Raynor's grandson
« Reply #29 on: July 16, 2005, 10:37:40 PM »
Tom, you are right on the money and I missed that one completely.  I was thinking more in terms of varying lengths and I missed it.

You spoke of your four favorites of your own design which ones are those?


Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You are Seth Raynor's grandson
« Reply #30 on: July 17, 2005, 02:50:57 AM »
I choose the fifth at Pine Valley because it is simply the most intimidating looking one shot golf hole ever created.


I select the 6th at NGLA because it is the neatest green complex ever constructed from nothing on flat ground.



I have to go with the Devil's Cauldron at Banff for sheer scenic splendor.



And lastly,I love the 10th at Friar's.
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You are Seth Raynor's grandson
« Reply #31 on: July 17, 2005, 06:00:06 AM »
This is a very difficult choice.  By eliminating elevation I assume holes like Calamity are out of the question.  My four would be:

#17 at Littlestone
The Postage Stamp
#4 at Cruden Bay

The last is difficult because #11 at Pennard should be there, but it crosses quite a valley.  So I would have to go with The Randy at Ballybunion.

Ciao

Sean
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mark_F

Re:You are Seth Raynor's grandson
« Reply #32 on: July 17, 2005, 06:07:40 AM »
Mike Clayton,

It's been a long while between rounds at RM - almost as long as it is between your columns on Golf Observer  :D - and they say a week is a long time in politics! - but my memories of the hole were that it wasn't that great.  

What makes it so?  

Granted, not a lot of long ones in Melb. to compare it with, but what about some of the Brit ones?  

Mark_F

Re:You are Seth Raynor's grandson
« Reply #33 on: July 17, 2005, 06:09:18 AM »
Sean,

What about your beloved Burnham and Berrow?  

The back nine has a couple of beuties in 14 and 17 - 17 gets all the fame, but I thought 14 cleaned it up.  

I was going to go with one of them, but both pale next to 4 at Porthcawl.  :D

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You are Seth Raynor's grandson
« Reply #34 on: July 17, 2005, 06:54:14 AM »
Mark

It is a hard call, what can I say?  I actually prefer #9 then #5.  B&B has one of the best sets of 3s I have played.  

Ciao

Sean
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Donnie Beck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You are Seth Raynor's grandson
« Reply #35 on: July 17, 2005, 08:38:33 AM »
How about combining a short and mini punchbowl to make an interesting par 3. I am no artist, but something like this?

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You are Seth Raynor's grandson
« Reply #36 on: July 17, 2005, 09:49:59 AM »
I really like your idea Donnie.  I love the punchbowl green complex at Blue Mound CC in Milwaukee.  It plays uphill for the approach shot, and is guarded fiercely by bunkering leftside.  

I like most of the shorts I have seen by Seth with an island of bunkering surrounds and the traditional soap dish depression when it is done in a manner to provide 5-6 excellent and differing pin placements.  

17 at Whistling Straits and 12 there for that matter.  One could argue that 17 somewhat functions redanish and 12 as a NADER.  I like how 17 has the guarding vulcano bunker partially hiding the near right putting surface and totally throwing off the depth perception of the green, while 12 is the ultimate runaway to a back pin.  

6 Riviera and 17 Bayside with bunkers in the middle and proper contouring around the middle bunker are very cool.

In a way, when Tom Doak asks for thoughts on a Seth Raynor like template par 3, without it being a Redan or Short, etc., and be one that can be built anywhere, the only limitation is one's imagination when placing contours in relation to hazards.  

That is why I like Donnie's, as he combines ideas.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Mike_Clayton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You are Seth Raynor's grandson
« Reply #37 on: July 17, 2005, 10:39:26 AM »
Mark

I think 16 works because the bunkering is not only beautifully constructed it punishes those who miss left but there is a bail-out right for the conservtive shot.
The green is small defying the convention of long shot - big green but it really takes a fine shot - shaped properly from right to left -  to hit it.
If you moved the tee back 50 yards it would also be a great short four with options of iron or wood from the tee.
I can't think of a long 3 on flat ground that comes close in Australia.

16 at St Andrews Beach off the back is a serious contender but it's hardly flat!

Mark_F

Re:You are Seth Raynor's grandson
« Reply #38 on: July 17, 2005, 04:57:42 PM »
Mike,

Thanks for that.

Ahh yes, the 16th at St Andrews Beach, dramatic theatre to my best score yet on a par three at the club - a glorious and hard-won 6.

What I would like to know is how you managed to get a green that appears to slope only mildly, roll like it has a 25 metre drop from front right to back left?????? >:( ???

Mark_F

Re:You are Seth Raynor's grandson
« Reply #39 on: July 17, 2005, 04:59:57 PM »
Sean,

Agreed.  It's actually a really good course, aside from that blasted first tee being so unnervingly close to the bar window.  

Possibly one of the 2 or 3 best sets of par threes in the UK?

Certainly better than any course holding The Open...

tonyt

Re:You are Seth Raynor's grandson
« Reply #40 on: July 17, 2005, 09:01:04 PM »
Tony,
 I never saw the original 4th at Yarra Yarra, any chace of a description of the hole and how it played.

David,

I have only the benefit of a couple of photos, and being shown on the spot itself by an old pro (Lyndsay Newlyn) in the late 80s of its former features. He was my long serving club pro when I was a junior at Ballarat, and his fondness for the former hole not only fascinated me at the time, but it is probably responsible for being my first introduction about a course's architectural history that got me really interested in golf course design. I think it was because he was the first to explain to me why a hole was designed a particular way, and what strategy it offered and what was forsaken when the green was changed. More experienced accounts or knowledge on the original Russell green complex should come from Mike Clayton perhaps?

Another hole I like the thought of that others mightn't: the fortress par 3, perhaps using the older Yale example in photos as an example.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2005, 09:04:33 PM by Tony Titheridge »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:You are Seth Raynor's grandson
« Reply #41 on: July 17, 2005, 09:30:02 PM »
Tom Doak,

I"d pick the "short" for several reasons.

1  It's not long and can appeal to every level of golfer
2  The greens within green concept creates incredible variety.
3  It works well with and without substantive elevation change
4  The pass-fail nature of the approach
5  The demand on the recovery
6  The putting challenge presented by an errant approach
7  Scorecard victimization.  100-140 yards and double bogies.
8  Easy to find a place for it to fit
9  The feeding nature of the putting surface to hungry bunkers
10 The need for precision
11 The impact of the wind
12 Wild contouring and tiers would be acceptable
« Last Edit: July 17, 2005, 09:30:59 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You are Seth Raynor's grandson
« Reply #42 on: July 18, 2005, 06:18:28 PM »
When I got to thinking about it, most of my favorites are rather short.
  #2 Kingsley Club
   #5 Pacific Dunes
   #6 NGLA
    #11 TOC

Tom,
   How do you get an Eden out of #5 Pasatiempo? A bit of a false front, and bunkering left and right, with a green that is not nearly as tough as the original.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Don Herdrich

Re:You are Seth Raynor's grandson
« Reply #43 on: July 18, 2005, 08:40:13 PM »
11th Charles River (one of the greatest long par 3s in the USA)
9th Myopia (has been mentioned, a very hard tee shot to a skinny green....no easy ups from any of the bunkers surrounding the green)