Courses needing a makeover...

[John Shimp]

What are some of the best classic courses that have fallen off the radar screen that with the right master plan and architect could really shine?  What specifically has allowed the course to "not keep up" or to change negatively from its initial design?  

[mike_malone]

 In Philadelphia I recommend Torresdale-Frankford. It is a classic to start with; a Ross with much interest. The good part is that tree removal would achieve most of the desired result. If many of the original playing angles were just opened up the challenge and fun would increase substantially.

    I love the look of the bunkers, but I imagine they need some updating. The greens ,excepting #9, are fine. Regrassing to bent may be recommended, but several clubs are coping with the poa well.

     I expect to see St. David's this Wednesday which will increase my Philly Ross portfolio to Lulu, Aronimink and TF.

    Torresdale-Frankford can proudly stand among these courses and surprise many ,if they would just stop "choking" it.

[wsmorrison]

John,

A highly regarded course  that requires restoration is The Cascades GC (so it really hasn't fallen off the radar screen) at the Homestead Resort.  Some bunkers have been lost and others added.  The greens have gotten much smaller and the outlines simplified.  The club wants to go back to the final Flynn plans as of 1935 or so.  

The bunkers are in desperate need of drainage and scooping out a lot of deep sand build up.  Ownership is going back to the Flynn plan by removing RTJ's 14th green and 15th tee and returning to the Flynn designs.  Work is scheduled to begin in October or November.  

The first phase will be greenside bunkers, green expansion and returning the 14th green to its original site and enabling the reconstruction of the old 15th tee and returning the angle of play and length.  

Watch out for some significant improvements there over the next few years.  I think it fair to disclose that Tom Paul and I are consulting with their team of experts--we wrote the long range plan and along with Craig Disher supplied them with a tremendous amount of archival materials including drawings and photographs.

[Geoffrey Childs]

John

Yale is #1 on my list.

They have a great superintendent (Scott Ramsay) now after two years of maintenance nightmares.

They have expanded the greens, changed mowing patterns, firmed up the turf, cut 800 trees with many more to come each year but they are stuck with the worst excuse for a bunker project in the history of golf!

see these threads for some documentation

hole 1
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=6624;start=msg127109#msg127109

hole2
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=6867;start=0


Hole 4
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=6952;start=0

hole5
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=7001;start=msg134352#msg134352


hole6
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=7082;start=msg136251#msg136251

hole7
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=7159;start=msg138277#msg138277

hole 17
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=7977

What could be


What is


TO his credit, Scott Ramsay has been planting native grasses around the edges of these aweful excuses for bunkers to make them almost presentable but nothing like the majestic beauties of old.  Yale is worthy and it would be a top 25-50 in the WORLD if restored.

[BCrosby]

Off the top of my head:

- Yale (I'll let Geoffery carry the torch)
- ANGC (See the new Byrdy book; see Wexler's book)
- East Lake (Lot's of photographic evidence of what was once there. There's a better course hidden just beneath the surface.)
- Athens CC

Bob

[corey miller]

Dr. Childs

Very good news up at Yale.  What is the role of the restoration architect in the positive changes?  Is he working with Scott Ramsey in enacting positive change?  Were all these changes in his plan for the club?  Shouldn't Scott Ramsey have a plan to work from?  

[Geoffrey Childs]

Dr. Childs

Very good news up at Yale.  What is the role of the restoration architect in the positive changes?  Is he working with Scott Ramsey in enacting positive change?  Were all these changes in his plan for the club?  Shouldn't Scott Ramsey have a plan to work from?  

Corey

All good questions.  Scott does have a short and long range plan working within the confines of his budget and personel constraints. He has spoken with Roger, however, my feeling is that it is the committee within the University that has had the best input (no formal proof of this as I am privy to nothing these days). The reason I say that is several of the bunkers had to be redone sometimes several times at the request of the committee and after Roger and his crew had supposedly finished them.

The right front bunker on 18 was done at least twice

What it should look like


The funniest example I have at home and I'll post tonight if possible.  Roger first built the freekin Redan bunker fronting #13 as a two part bunker with a big mound in the middle so that maintenance equipment could be driven in to mow the green from that side.  Luckily I caught pictures of his "restoration".  Clearly the committee after picking themselves up off the turf having fainted at the sight of it had him eliminate the mound to create one redan bunker.  Yes Roger I have it on film. What were you thinking?

[ChasLawler]

John,

A highly regarded course  that requires restoration is The Cascades GC (so it really hasn't fallen off the radar screen) at the Homestead Resort.....

Watch out for some significant improvements there over the next few years.  I think it fair to disclose that Tom Paul and I are consulting with their team of experts--we wrote the long range plan and along with Craig Disher supplied them with a tremendous amount of archival materials including drawings and photographs.

Wayne,
That is great news. Is there an architect involved?

[John Shimp]

Yale and Cascades are great examples. I used to play Yale a lot and never realized what happened.  East Lake also interesting as they have spent so much money on the place in the last 15 years and haven't made it right.

Palmetto is another place that is trying to go back to where it used to be.  Bunkers are much deeper and better and resemble MacKenzie bunkers I've seen in other courses and photos.  Greens are also being enlarged.  Still old bermuda grass though.  Some lengthening is being attempted on 5 holes, but course will still be a bit short for a par 71 at around 6600yds from the farthest back location.

[wsmorrison]

Cabell and John,

The Cascades ownership really wants to go back to the Flynn designs there; the final hole-by-hole plans based upon drawings and both aerial and ground photographs.  Flynn returned to the resort nearly every year for 12-15 years and made changes over time.  Some of these were lost in flooding (the stream that runs through the area carries the drainage from a very large area) or changed over time by RTJ, Sr among others.  We have a great deal of information to reference and we wrote a 120-page plan that they are using in a major way.  

We never did represent ourselves as architects but rather historical consultants.  With Craig's help we did some pretty neat things with technology to interface the drawings and photographs.  In our opinion it is an extraordinary way to go back to Flynn especially since he built as planned unlike others that weren't so exact.

We did have an architect but there are some stumblng blocks we hope to overcome.  There will be oversight.  Club Corp is solidly behind the work and both the Pinehurst staff and Homestead staff are involved.  I predict an excellent result and look forward to hearing your comments as it gets implemented.  

Cabell,

When we go back, I'll let you know and perhaps you can meet us down there.

[ChasLawler]

Wayne,
I'll look forward to seeing the changes, and would be very interested in meeting you all in Hot Springs.