[Marc Haring]

I have just got my copy of Greenkeeper International and in it is the usual July feature on the superintendent at this years Open. I will post a link later if the article gets onto their website.

Euan Grant is the man in charge on TOC and he does come up with one very interesting comment, namely that the fairways will be stimping at about 10 for the event with the greens at not more than 10 and a half.

Any comments on that statement?

My own concern is that it will result in the bump and run becoming obsolete for the simple reason that controlling that particular shot will be impossible. After all, the top players will even resort to hitting a wedge on the greens if they are faced with an especially long putt, so with the fairways running at the same speed as the greens, what will happen??

[ForkaB]

Marc

Because of the high ridges at the front of so many greens (due to the reversal of the course 150 years ago), the ground game will be the best option whenever the pins are up front (unless, of course you can consistently fly it with spin to 6" square spots on the top of the ridges ......).

[Jim_Kennedy]

Marc,

My own concern is that it will result in the bump and run becoming obsolete for the simple reason that controlling that particular shot will be impossible

I'd take an opposite view, fairways that short make running shots  more predictable.

[PThomas]

using the Stimpmeter on fairways is this week's sign that the apocalypse is probably soon upon us

[jeffwarne]

Next we'll be told the course needs to be "modernized" again(lengthened)because the fast fairways are letting the drives roll too far.
I'm all for a good drought and controlled scarcity of irrigation causing fairways to play super firm and fast,but using the stimpmeter on fairways at TOC gives me chills.

[SPDB]

where do they find flat spots TOC's fairways to stimp?

[BCrosby]

This reminds me of the Nicklaus interview recently where he said the players were shocked by the speed of the greens at Oakmont in '62. They had never seen anything like it.

He said they would have stimped at about 7.5.

Bob

[David Sneddon]

What fast fairways might do, is take the driver out of play on several holes, for fear of the ball running too far and into bunkers.  It may force players to start to really think their way around the course again, and hopefully bring the ground game more into play.

[PThomas]

on the other hand, is it possible that the course will play too fast and too short and turn St. Andrews into a joke for this competition?

is there any other course that is used for such tournaments that has such concerns?  I know they've added length, but will that really matter?  aren't there 3-4 par 4's that can be driven?

I can see where one might argue that ANGC has been tinkered with too much re tree additions, etc., but not re additional length

the USGA and R&A totally fumbled away control re the distance craze

[Jim_Kennedy]

BCrosby,
At a slope of 6 degrees and a stimp of  8 a golf ball will not stop rolling. At a stimp of 13 a ball won't stop rolling at about 3 degrees.
A good source for seeing the relationship between slope and speed is found here:
http://turf.lib.msu.edu/1990s/1997/970312.pdf

[ChasLawler]

BCrosby,
At a slope of 6 degrees and a stimp of  8 a golf ball will not stop rolling. At a stimp of 13 a ball won't stop rolling at about 3 degrees.
A good source for seeing the relationship between slope and speed is found here:
http://turf.lib.msu.edu/1990s/1997/970312.pdf

well...I guess downhill lies won't be much of a factor in this year's open

[BCrosby]

Or uphill lies either.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Cabell,
You'd have more of a chance of being right if everyone were rolling their tee shots with stimpmeters instead of hitting them with clubs.  

[Brian_Gracely]

Let me see if I understand the collective GCA groupthink correctly...

In this thread aout NGLA, http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=18710, those types of conditions were praised.

But when the Greenskeeper at TOC verbally quantifies the fairways firmness/speed to the media, then the USGA and R&A should be hung in effigy?  

[BCrosby]

Sandbox (what's with the nick names?) -

That's not my view. Hard, fast fairways are a good thing. And will be at TOC.

Balls will come to rest in some funny places, but those places will not be very inclined. I think that's interesting. Its something I had not thought of before.

Bob

[Eddie Adams]

I think we should let Euan do his job and then after the Championship you can discuss what you would have done if you were in his position.
I am positive on several things however, that the bump and run shot will be played during the Open and I am positive a wedge will be used during the Open and I am even more positive that the putter will be used both on the greens and on the fairways. Stimp the fairways I did and any Super wanting to know all there is to know about their golf course when presenting a course for thee MAJOR would as well.
Euan Grant will present the Old as it should be fast and firm.
Mother Nature will take care of the rest.
Enjoy Euans and the greenstaffs efforts they know what they are doing.

[tonyt]

My own concern is that it will result in the bump and run becoming obsolete for the simple reason that controlling that particular shot will be impossible.

No, I think 2000 showed us through all the bobbing, bumping and rolling how crucial it is. The spinning high shot goes through the same motions once its earth ridden.

If players can't hit to a fairway point by stopping it there softly, they will have to work out how to get it there by landing it elsewhere. Same goes for certain sections of a lot of greens.

[Jim_Bick]

This is not news. I was at the Open in 2000. Out walking in the evening, I walked past a group of people breaking up after dinner. This was on the road (Grandma? wynd) which crosses 18. It included the then president of the USGA (Holland?) and Vijay. Vijay   was saying that the fairways were faster than the greens.

[Craig Sweet]

I would wager that fairways stimping at 10 on TOC means they are close to dead.

[Tom_Doak]

The fairways were damned close to that fast in 2000.  I was there ten days before the event and I couldn't believe how tightly everything was mowed considering the undulations.

But, ideally, I believe the fairways and the greens should be the same speed.  It's much harder to judge landing a ball short of the green if it rolls for 30 feet at speed X, and then accelerates to speed 2X once it gets on the green ... that means landing a ball a few feet shorter than you intended creates twice as much error in the finished result.

The great thing about fescue is that the fairways and the greens CAN be close to the same speed for short periods of time.  Pacific Dunes was pretty close to this ideal a year ago when I was there.

[Paul_Turner]

That's the only criticism I had for Sand Hills:  the greens are too fast in relation to the fairway.

[Jim Thompson]

This is wonderful!  Bravo!  A golf body somewhere understands the concept of an open competition where the entire field has an opportunity to be in the hunt on day four.  Not just the 15% THAT CAN BE LONG AND STRONG.  Moreover, this makes strategy and decision making a needed skill as well as shot making.  A course that is both a physical and mental test.  Leave it to the wisdom of the Isles to remind us what golf is.  Its my hope that things will be so firm that most bunkers will play even larger than they already do and that the boys will be looking to dump those hard no spin rocks for some tour balatas back in the truck so they can hold.  I have no problem with an open being settled at 30 under or 30 over so long as the entire field has legitimate shot at victory.  Well done lads, well done!

Cheers!

JT

[Nate Golomb]

Sounds great to me, I cannot wait to see their golf balls rolling all over the crazy slopes at TOC. We're probably going to see alot of blasts from fairway bunkers because the ball rolls in them at funny angles and hopefully some interesting lies. The short game is once again going to play a vital role and with fairways that tight and fast, the test is probably going to come down to the flat stick around the greens, or perhaps the utility clubs. I hope we don't see too many players grinding down the bounce on their wedges to get close to the turf, allowing them to play their lob shots just like every other tour stop...

Hopefully the wind blows and the weather sucks like it did in round 3 at Muirfield in 2002 or 2003's first round and Royal St. George's and not a repeat of 2000 at TOC when the weather was like a perfect July weekend in the Midwest of the states...Owell, wait, watch, and find out...

~The New Guy (Nate)

[Brian Phillips]

I think we should let Euan do his job and then after the Championship you can discuss what you would have done if you were in his position.
I am positive on several things however, that the bump and run shot will be played during the Open and I am positive a wedge will be used during the Open and I am even more positive that the putter will be used both on the greens and on the fairways. Stimp the fairways I did and any Super wanting to know all there is to know about their golf course when presenting a course for thee MAJOR would as well.
Euan Grant will present the Old as it should be fast and firm.
Mother Nature will take care of the rest.
Enjoy Euans and the greenstaffs efforts they know what they are doing.

Eddie,

Graeme Webster my partner was there on Sunday and he said he cannot remember the course ever looking so perfect for tounament golf.  I agree with you and think that people should wait and see.  If the conditions do produce the range of shots you are hoping for then Euan has nit the nail on the head.

Brian

[Marc Haring]

Here’s the link to the article:

http://www.bigga.org.uk/greenkeeper/viewstory.php?id=728

By the way, no criticism of Euan. I think he’s done the perfect job of creating links conditions without incurring the wrath of the professionals who want wall to wall perfect lies.

Interesting what Tom Doak was saying about the difficulty in judging the difference in speed from the fairway to green and I agree. But I wonder if everything will be too fast to play the bump and run effectively. Maybe we should all accept the demise of the shot in professional golf. I can see them taking a putter from a few yards off the green, after all, they will be playing on a 7000 yard putting green, but will we see a 100 yard seven iron? Personally I doubt it. With fairways that tight, I suspect the wedge with about 20,000 RPM of munch will be the order of the day for downwind holes and anything into the wind and they’ll be able to stop a four iron on concrete.

Interesting also what has been identified regarding the lack of uneven lies. Surely a prerequisite for links golf but maybe eliminated with fairways stimping at 10.

My own feeling is that the only way to make the true bump and run a viable option  is to let everything get very slow;  very firm but very slow and let’s face it, that’s not going to happen.

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