GCA Ryder Cup 2006, Hoylake

[Philip Gawith]

Next year the Open championship returns to Hoylake for the first time since 1967.

I think it would be a nice idea to mark the return to prominence of one of the UK's most celebrated links by using it as the venue for next year's GCA Ryder Cup event.

I have sounded Ran out on this idea and he is very supportive, and keen to participate if we can schedule it in October. Judging by informal soundings, I think there is also some support for Hoylake among others who played in this year's event at Littlestone.

I have also been in touch with Donald Steel, architect, author and the man who  presided over the changes made to Hoylake in order to ready it for the return of the Open. He would make a very good speaker at a dinner. Although he has a very busy year next year - he takes office as President of the English Golf Union in February - he has said he would like to join us a guest speaker if his schedule allows.

The purpose of this email is to see what level of support there might be for a GCA event at Hoylake next year; and what preferences there are in relation to timing.

I think Ran's preferred timing of October makes sense as the traffic on the course will not be too heavy. If there was a preference to host the event before the Open, it would be best to go quite early, probably not much later than March.

I think we have the makings of a good event.  Hoylake is a great course and a great club which would provide a good welcome and enthusiastic member support.

Obviously there are lots of other good courses to play round Hoylake  - Wallasey would be a good choice for a second course, but there are others too.

It is all still a long way away, but it would be nice to hear any feedback and get a feel for levels of interest.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I do hate to say how great an idea this is. I would love to see it this October. lol Lets see how far up the pole it goes and if it stays there.

[johnk]

A big thumbs up for me...

Sept. would be more daylight, and more warmth, but early October would be fine...

[ed_getka]

Philip,
   I am interested, but have an  Australia trip in mind a few months later, so it all depends  on how things fall into place. Great idea though.

[Chris Kane]

I may be in the UK from mid-2006, so pencil me in as a possibility.

Ed, let me know if I can be of assistance when you come to Australia.

[Bill_McBride]

Pencil me in, Philip, I'm still disappointed about missing the 2005 edition.  And had so much fun at Painswick 2004 that I'm going by there next week for a couple of rounds en route to the Open.  Any idea at this early stage which courses we might be playing other than Hoylake?

[peter_p]

Slim chance for me, won't know until this fall. If you want a local to do the heavy lifting try Tony Rodwell, who is a member at Hesketh in Southport. He used to organize tours in that area which melded visitors with locals. We had a group of 20 which played Hesketh, S&A, Hillside and Birkdale, and he had connections from Hoylake to Alwoodley to Lytham to Nefyn & District and all points in between.

[Gene Greco]

Ran mentioned this to me when we were in NE last week and it appealed to me very much. OCT is best. Would also like to get to the SW and play the great ones there as well.

[Philip Gawith]

Bill - obviously there are lots of other courses we can play. I suppose it will come down partly to format, partly to what people prefer, and  partly to where we think we can organise things to get a bit of local member support.

If we stick to Ryder Cup format then I would imagine we might play 36 at Hoylake, 36 somewhere else and then final 18 back at Hoylake - but nothing is set in stone.

As mentioned, Wallasey would be a definite possibility - I think it is only 5 miles from Hoylake, is an Open qualifier for Hoylake, and much favoured by various GCA folk.

Another possibility would be Formby - a bit further afield.

I asked Mark Rowlinson what he thought and he also mentioned Delamere Forest (Fowler) and Prestbury (Colt) as options if we felt like sampling some non-links golf too.

Sean - how can you know your agenda so far in advance?

[Craig Disher]

Philip,
I'll echo John's comment - earlier in Oct the better - but at this point, I can work my schedule to attend on any dates you can arrange. If you opt for another venue, based on this year's experience I think closer is preferable. Wallasey would be terrific.

The Budapest Cup is nearly in its final form and hopefully will be brought to Hoylake by at least some of our Littlestone hosts.

I'm sending you an im.

[ForkaB]

Philip

As we've discussed over the past month or so, if selected, I'm in!

Agree that earlier in October the better.  For one thing, we'll have nearly 12 hours of daylight then, vs. less than 10 hours at the end of the month.  Agree with Craig that having the alternative "official" venue as close as possible (e.g. Wallesey) is good.  There will be ample time and opportunity for visits to other places, for those so inclined.  If we could find a cheap and cheerful local hotel for Buda Central, that would be good too.

Keep up the good work!

Rich

[Bill_McBride]

How far is Beau Desert?  I've a hankering to see that place!

[Philip Gawith]

Rich - I can't imagine the selection policy which would exclude a stellar talent like yourself. I agree with your counsel re timing - we certainly want all the daylight we can get.

Bill - Sean Arble is your man to answer that question. I am supposed to be playing with him there next week so maybe between us we can manage to take a few pictures.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Bill, Beau Desert is realistically a couple of hours away.  (It can be more if you choose the wrong time to drive down the M6). I should be very happy to point people to other courses in the vicinity.  Wallasey would make an excellent alternative.  Those bringing wives should direct them to Wirral Ladies' and Formby Ladies'.  I like Caldy and Heswall on the Wirral, too - their settings are gorgeous.  

Of course, West Lancs, Formby, Southport and Ainsdale, Royal Birkdale, Hillside and Hesketh are a short drive away (or even a train ride).  It's only about an hour to Conwy on the North Wales coast, 90 minutes to Bull Bay, Nefyn, Porthmadoc, Holyhead and a little more to Harlech and Aberdovey.

Inland there are Delamere Forest (Fowler) and Sandiway (Ray/Colt) which were close enough to Hoylake to be the final qualifying venues when last the Open was played at Hoylake.  Many of you would love to see Prestbury (Colt - maintained by a Colt-minded greenkeeper - might he give a talk on maintaining a Colt course?).  Mackenzie fans should make a point of checking out Reddish Vale and Cavendish.

It's only about an hour to Royal Lytham and Silloth is about 2.30, Seascale the same, for those who want to break the journey north to Scotland.

Unless you have reasons to be in the London area don't bother with flights to Heathrow or (worse) Gatwick.  Fly in to Manchester.  Most of the main US airlines plus BA and British Midland have direct flights from the main hubs.  Or, fly to Dublin, play a few courses there, then take the high-speed ferry to Holyhead and the A55 is a good main road of almost motorway standard. I'd happily host a few of you at Conwy.

My only observation about the timing is that some clubs begin winter mode in October - the greens are kept a little longer, the back tees are closed off, maintenance work may be put in train and so on.  It would be worth checking with any proposed courses exactly when this kicks in.  

[Philip Gawith]

Mark - thanks for whetting appetites with your insights into the many fine courses that are within easy reach of Hoylake.

Thanks also for the warning re possible changes to courses in October time. I will certainly consult to try and avoid any of the eventualities you refer to.

[Brent Hutto]

I'm considering moving my Highlands trip up from early September into June or July sp that my wife can accompany me if she wishes. If she decides not to come, I'd consider sliding it later to be able to attend a Budapest Cup at Hoylake and neighbors. I'll know how that shakes out in a couple months or so.

[johnk]

West Lancs, Prestbury, Cavendish and Formby!  Woo-hoo!

Mark, your list gives me goosebumps...

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

You guys are making late September sound better and better.

[Bill_McBride]

Thanks, Sean, Beau Desert is imperative.  Many North Californians (I used to be one) probably have forgotten that Herbert Fowler, architect of Beau Desert, also designed Crystal Springs way back when!  How much Fowler do you suppose is still there?  I know 280 did a number on it, and those holes at the south end of the course are really awful.

So flying into Birmingham or Manchester would make this an easy several day trip......

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Sean's assessment of BD is spot on - it really is a cracker.  If you want to play it from the white tees you'll need to get prior permission - it had to go to committee when I asked for that re-visiting it some years ago in connection with a book.  But they did agree and, fortunately, I played well enough to make it worthwhile.

If you decide to stay somewhere around the 'beautiful wasteland' you might also consider playing Whittington Heath a few miles away - a Colt heathland course which has many demanding holes and quite a few period features (including a periscope on one tee), but there have been some alterations in recent times (Hawtree?).

[Paul_Turner]

I'll try to make this...I have to see Delamere Forest,  particularly the 9th hole!

[TEPaul]

What does the first hole of Hoylake look like or play like or did? I'm interested to know as George Crump tried to pattern his first hole after it at PVGC, certainly in the sense that his first hole would be a tough "play-off" hole.

[Paul_Turner]

Tom

It's almost identical in shape and length to the 1st at PVGC.  But  the whole inside of the dogleg is OB, including up to the green side.  So the choices of angles for the player are very tricky(and dependent on the wind direction) i.e do I hit away from OB with the tee shot leaving a much longer second which then has to be directed almost back towards the OB.

Last rumour I heard was that the Open was going to used the 16th as its finisher so that the famous 1st would become the 3rd!

[Philip Gawith]

Tom - if you have Robert Hunter's "The Links" close to hand, he describes the opening hole at Hoylake close to the front of the book.

It is one of those holes which you don't notice the first time you play, but then gets steadily more into your head the more you play it. It has to be a leading contender for the flattest hole in championship golf.

And if there were a prize for the hole which is at once the most unprepossessing and the most daunting, it would surely win.

Paul - you are right, they are changing the routing of the course for the Open as you describe.

 They have decided to have the 16th as the closing hole because:
- they think 18 is one of the weaker holes;
- 16 finishes in front of the club house;
- 16 provides more potential for excitement because of the out of bounds factor, plus the fact that it can be eagled.

The price of this decision, of course, is that the first drive will not be quite such a stomach-clenching affair as with the current layout. But it will still we fun watching the pro's play this hole, even if they have already played two before it.

[Mike_Sweeney]

Philip and Ran,

Interested to attend.

Thanks