[JNC Lyon]

     Played at the recently renovated Hanover Country Club yesterday. The course was a real treat, with some outrageous terrain, great bunkering, loads of fescue, emphasized by excellent tree maintenance, and several quirky aspects. The quirks included back to back par threes, back to back par fives to finish (the 17th can also be played as a par three), an old ski jump behind Nos. 13 and 14, and a shared fairway between numbers 8 and 9 (61 yards wide).

     Probably the most unusual aspect was the crossover shot between #6 and #18. There is a ravine to be crossed on both holes. When one first reaches the sixth tee, golfers can be seen on the the eighteenth tee to the left of six fairway and playing across the line of flight, the same occurs on eighteen, a gambling two shotter with an exciting diagonal tee shot over the ravine.

     I had never seen a crossover shot in the states, nor have I ever heard of one. I know there are several in the British Isles. What are other examples of crossover shots? Do they enhance or take away from the charm of the course?

[Mark_Rowlinson]

I've played some on which there is little or no interference and they are fine.  The 1st at Wilmslow, for instance, is played from an elevated tee across a river valley, most men having no difficulty making the full carry to the high ground on the far side.  In the bottom of the valley is a stream and the 18th green.  But it is not unknown for 1st tee rustiness to set in and a topped shot leads to rapid cries of fore.  

There are a couple at Marple, a club on a constricted site dating back to 1892.  I think the cross-overs were caused by trying to extend the course beyond its natural length.  Here they are dangerous - in my opinion.  

Dukinfield is another hilly site, like Marple on the edge of the Pennines.  It, too has a very constructed site, with several crossing holes.  It's fine for the members who know where to keep a look out, but I fear for any visiting party.  Dukinfield, incidentally is only 5,303 yards long with a par of 67, but it rises to a par 5 of 592 yards in length!

[Tom_Doak]

JNC:  There's a list of about a dozen of them in the back of The Confidential Guide.  I don't have a copy with me today.

Off the top of my head, the only other crossover I can remember in the USA is on the New course at Indianwood near Detroit, where Bob Cupp and Jerry Pate deliberately made a crossover similar to the 7th and 11th at St. Andrews (the holes are completely different, but the angle and placement of the crossover is the same).

Oh, wait ... Claremont in California has a bunch.  The seventh hole plays over the approach to the third and the tee shot to the fourth, and the eighteenth crosses in front of the tee on the downhill par-3 eighth.

[Dan_Callahan]

As to the question of whether crossover shots enhance or take away from the charm of a course, I think it depends on the course (how's that for equivocating?). The crossover at Hanover is one of my favorite features of the layout. I think it has to do with the holes affected. Those going out are still early in their round. Those coming in are finishing up. It's a moment to see two totally different mindsets—the optimism of those with the majority of their round ahead of them, and the often defeated bearing of those who just got their butts kicked on the new 16th and 17th.

However, I'd hate to see crossovers become a popular design feature. I've waited on the tee at Hanover for about 20 minutes as one golfer after the next dumped shots into the ravine. It can be a real logjam at times. I can live with it at Hanover, because it is part of the unique charm of the course. It might drive me crazy elsewhere.

[Tony_Chapman]

Isn't the most famous crossover shot the 7th and 11th at St. Andrews??

[Bill_McBride]

Brocket Hall outside London has a doozy designed by Peter Allis.  #4 and #15 or 16 cross over each other across an 80 yd wide river, with greens on the opposite side of the river!  Never saw anything quite like that before.  What made it wild, for a first time player with no caddies or members along, was that there was a green on our side of the river dead ahead, but it was sloped at 90 degrees to the right!  We stood there for a few minutes trying to figure out what the hell was going on, and finally noticed the green across the wide river, with a large green conveniently sloped in our direction!  Then the lights went on.  

Since we were playing this 460 yd hole into the wind and in light sleet, it became a par 5 and I think there were bogies made even then.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Von Hagge-Devlin have that at Chase Oaks in Plano, TX. but both are par 3 holes over a pond.  There are no safety or delay issues at all, and its kind of neat, plus I presume it got the routing going where it wanted to go in the sequence it wanted to go in........

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