[cary lichtenstein]

I have played the vast majority of top courses in the world, and I am ready to declare that:

Lakota Canyon is among them

This is one thrilling golf course, and after playing it 3 times, it just keeps getting better, as I learn more and more of its nuiances.

Visually, the course is spectular. I have tried to separate the beauty from the shotmaking, and I still come to the same conclusion.

Anyone interested in playing it with me, I'll be here in Colorado for 8 more weeks, send me an instant message.

Lakota Canyon is located about 10 miles west of Glenwood Springs, about and hour from Vail, and an hour from Aspen, and about 3 hours from Denver.

[THuckaby2]

Cary - I trust your opinions quite implicitly.  You do get around, and you do know your stuff.

But to help me out here, put it in context... Give me a top 10, with Lakota in it.  

Top 10 in the world is such a HUGE statement, well... I want to see if you can really make it work, that is, what course it displaces, etc.

TH

ps - if I don't see Sand Hills in that list, well... it becomes nothing more than a curiousity, one man's opinion.  

[cary lichtenstein]

Tom:

Let's take Sand Hills as a great example. If you put Sand Hills in the top 10, and I believe it firmly is, then based on the type of course Sand Hills is, a sand based, links course, then Lakota Canyon is a top 10 based on its category, which is a mountain/canyon course.

When I make this kind of statement, I am using my own critera for saying this. I leave out tradition, ambiance, walking, and I judge it based on pure golf architecture and shotmaking.

[cary lichtenstein]

Bill:

I'm firmly in touch with my full mental faculties

Anybody want to play marbles?

[THuckaby2]

Cary:

"Pure golf architecture and shotmaking"?  Seems to me that encompasses all of those other criteria you seem to discount, depending on how one looks at things.  And just where did you get those criteria, and why would you state that in a post to me, particularly?    But since you seem to want to go down this road, well...it's curious to me why you'd say this:

"Visually, the course is spectular. I have tried to separate the beauty from the shotmaking, and I still come to the same conclusion."

Interesting.  So if it's all about shotmaking and architecture, why mention that it's visually spectacular?  Seems to me in your world this or any course would be just as great sitting next to a toxic waste dump....

Oh well, this wasn't meant to be argumentative.  As I said, I do value and respect your opinions.  Just do give me a world Top 10, if you like, so I can see the context into which Lakota falls.  Remember, I don't doubt its greatness - I'd love to see it some day.  That's just such a tall statement, it will be very interesting to me to see how you feel it compares.

I'll help you out.  Here's my world top 10, just off the top of my head:

1. Sand Hills
2. Cypress Point
3. NGLA
4. The Old Course
5. Pine Valley
6. Shinnecock Hills
7. Pebble Beach
8. Royal Dornoch
9. Augusta National
10. Ballybunion Old

See what I mean?  Putting Lakota Canyon in amongst those, or among the many other courses one might consider Top 10 (ie Merion, Oakmont, County Down, Pinehurst #2, Portrush Dunluce, Royal Melbourne,  Muirfield, etc.)... well.. it just seems like a very tall statement.

I assume you meant it that way.  I just want some further confirmation, that's all.

TH

[THuckaby2]

Cary:

Very well.  And you'll notice I didn't put Pinehurst #2 in the top 10 either.  I just mentioned it as a course that others might - it is quite well-respected.  I'm with you way more than you might think about how all of this should go....

So are you gonna give me a top 10 or not?  Come on man, it's not that hard...

 

[cary lichtenstein]

Tom:

I have not played Oakmont, Pacific Dunes, or Kinlock, so I cannot include those. I do not include TPC at Sawgrass because it is just too hard.

In no particluar order:

Lakota Canyon
Pine Valley
Cypress Point
Augusta
Pebble
National
Fishers
Sand Hills
Whistling Straits
Old Course
Ballybunion
Royal County Down
Royal Dornock
Friar's Head


My 2nd tier:

Bethpage Black
Shinnecock Hills
Crystal Downs
Olympic
Merion
Bandon Dunes
Sage Valley

[THuckaby2]

Well I haven't played Augusta or Pine Valley, but I think I feel safe including them.

And I note you didn't place Lakota anywhere.  So the idea is it fits in with all of these?

Well that's a lesser statement than saying it's a world Top 10, now isn't it?

Come on man, rank them like I did, insert Lakota.  Hell all I'm gonna say is "neat, it must be one hell of a course."

I'm just learning from the great Pat Mucci that at times, statements need to be backed up.

 

[ChasLawler]

I only glanced at the pictures on the website, but it appears to me every hole but one plays downhill.

Is that true Cary?

If so - that's not a whole lot of variety

looks fun though.

[THuckaby2]

Very cool.  Heck, your listing of Black Rock is controversial enough, in this crowd anyway.  Well done.

I look forward to the list.

 

[cary lichtenstein]

Cabell:

Every hole does not play downhill.

 The 3rd plays downhill on the tee shot, uphill on the 2nd, and way uphill on the 3rd. Great hole.

10 also plays down hill and then uphill.

18 plays downhill and then finishes off uphill.

Cary

[Matthew Schulte]

In addition to the holes Cary mentioned, the following three are not downhill.

Par 4 #14 Actually plays uphill from the back tee box.  In fact, from that tee box most of the fairway is not visible.

Par 3 #15 plays flat across a pond.

Par 4 #16 plays relativley flat crossing the hazard twice.  

While Lakota is very good and by far Jim Engh's best, I think I would have a very difficult time displacing any of the world's top ten courses for Lakota.  

[THuckaby2]

While Lakota is very good and by far Jim Engh's best, I think I would have a very difficult time displacing any of the world's top ten courses for Lakota.  

That's more what I would expect, and is why I am giving poor Cary the third degree.

However, Sand Hills has done this (by some takes, anyway)... so it's not like a new course CAN'T make this happen.... I surely remain open to the possibility.

TH

[cary lichtenstein]

Tom:

Very cute "Thanks more of what I expect"

Why? Come see and play the course and compare for yourself.

Just choicing the comment that fits what you would expect, does not make Matt's comment more valid than mine.

Cary

[Geoffrey Childs]

Cary

The photos on the website show significant containment and convex features that would keep errant shots in play.  Is this the case?

Lakota Canyon looks to be interesting and worth a play but I would not have expected that bold a statement from you.  By comparison what other new courses besides Friars Head (which is on your list) would compare favorably

Ocean Course
Kinloch
TPC Sawgrass
Rustic Canyon
Wild Horse
Victoria National
World Woods Pine Barrons
Pac Dunes (I see you have not played it but I didn't want to leave it off)

Thanks
 

[Matt_Ward]

While I am a hige fan of Lakota Canyon Ranch I will not go so far as to say (no disrespect Cary) that it makes my personal top ten in the USA.

However, I will say this -- Lakota would make my top 100 and I would certainly include it with the likes of Black Mesa and Red Sky Ranch (Norman) as three (3) superb mountain time courses worthy of attention for the totality of their architectural dimensions and the sheer majesty of the sites they each occupy.

Lakota Canyon Ranch also plays firm and fast as any course you could ever hope to play in America.

One last thing -- for all those blowhards (you know who you are) who continually keep on barking about mountain time golf being some sort of diversion or inferior product it's time for you to play the courses in question and end the incessant pissing and moaning contest.

One further thing on Lakota -- the following holes play uphill to some degree -- the 4th (superbn driving hole from the tips), 7th, 14th, 16th and 18th (on 2nd and 3rd shots).

The one key ingredient with Lakota is the pur fun and scenery to the mx when playing. Utterly enjoyable for all types of players and one of the best affordable you can play.

[Mike_Sweeney]

"Lakota Canyon was in our opinion, better than Redlands Mesa, and second only to Sanctuary in the state."

Quassi, September 4, 2004

Cary,

What happen to Sanctuary since last September?  

[THuckaby2]

Tom:

Very cute "Thanks more of what I expect"

Why? Come see and play the course and compare for yourself.

Just choicing the comment that fits what you would expect, does not make Matt's comment more valid than mine.

Cary

Cary:  There's nothing personal here whatsoever. And where did I ever compare validity of the statements?  It's just that "top 10 in the world" is SUCH a huge, enormous, Paul Bunyan-tall statement, that it is quite unexpected from anyone.  Great but not making a top 10 in the world is much more to be expected, no?

Because the world only has ten top 10 courses.  Displacing one is rather huge.

 

I hope to see it some day.  As I'm now saying for the third time, I very much admire and respect your opinions.  Notice I don't at all question the greatness of the course - if you (and Matt W.) say it's great, that's good enough for me and I have no reason to doubt it.

Top 10 in the world?  That's another story.

You could very well be correct.  I'm just trying to get to the bottom of why that might be so.

TH

[A_Clay_Man]

Cary, Is Lakota walkable?

[Tom_Doak]

My bold statement:

Everybody's got one course in their top ten that doesn't really belong, and which they really know doesn't belong.  (At least one frequent poster here has about five of them, but he doesn't know it.)  

Cary is a Jim Engh-o-phile so it's not surprising he's picked Lakota Canyon, the latest and greatest for the time being.

But he hasn't said anything so far which would convince me that it belongs.

Would ANY hole at Lakota Canyon beat any hole at Pine Valley or Cypress Point in a match play?  Are there no holes at all which fail to impress?  Unless the answers to these questions are a resounding yes, then it's not worth arguing the point.

[Matt_Ward]

Tom D:

How bout you hold off with the "Jim Engh-o-phile comments" since there are people here on GCA who are Tom Doak-o-phile people, Crenshaw & Coore-o-phile and etc, etc, etc.

Does anyone make those type of comments in regards to such people with such preferences?

Let me mention you were the guy who had a big time question on the 18th at Lakota based on nothing more than a picture and made a disparaging comment on the nature of the hole / strategic implications on the nature of the 2nd / 3rd shot options without ever having played it.

Might it be possible that others in the design universe have a sense on what makes for a good hole / course?

GCA has become the launching pad for a certain style of golf course and the designers who specialize in producing them. I say hats off to them but I ugre those same people to remember there are other very skilled and equally talented people who inhabit the golf universe too.

Let me mention that I am not suggesting Lakota Canyon Ranch is a top 10 in the USA for me. I have played my share of outstanding courses but I will say this -- I have no hesitation or reservation in throwing the course into my personal top 100. I also believe the likes of Black Mesa (Baxter Spann) and Red Sky Ranch's Norman Course (Greg Norman) are no less highly intoxicating designs that clearly demonstrate for me how quality modern designs are clearly coming forward and they are coming forward beyond the limited and narrow range of architects that too few here on GCA seem to prefer.

Bill:

Take a chill partner -- you need to get out and play more golf.

Adam:

Carts are mandatory at Lakota Canyon Ranch but if play had to institute a walking only procedure in the event of a special event it could be done.

[Don Herdrich]

Is the goal to take Lakota private eventually?  Looks like a nice place, hope to get out there the two weeks I am in Denver around the International.

[cary lichtenstein]

Tom:

I think your comment is way out of line. Have you seen or played Lakota? Have you built a mountain course that compares to anything Jim Engh has done? If so, give me the name and I will surely play it and comment on it fairly.

In the meantime, since I understand you are building Ballyneal, which I hear is coming also nicely, you're here in Colo, meet me at Lakota, let's play together, and you can disect each and every hole. I'd be happy to learn from you.

Geoffrey:

There is significant containment and there needs to be that containment,  and it is not walkable except for a Billygoat.

Others:

It's all about what turns me on. What are the best holes are Pebble Beach and Cypress? #8 at Pebble because it combines beauty and shotmaking. At Cypress, #16 becasue it combines beauty and shotmaking. At Spyglass, it's the first 6 holes, all for the same reasons.

Take Muirfield in Scotland for example, besides being treated badly when we were there, no caddy would carry my wifes bag, the sign said no dogs or women allowed, we were bored to death with the course. Was it hard, yes...so was Carnousie, which was bleak, cold, and nasty.

Are they good British Open courses, absolutely because they test the best golfer, do they belong in the top 10 or 20, I don't think so, they are no fun, just punishing. Ditto with Pinehurst #2, which I think Donald Ross would be turning over in his grave if he saw how they bastardized his course.

Pine Valley has it all, so does Augusta.

[cary lichtenstein]

To answer a few questions:

Geoffrey:

Other new courses:

I have not played Kinlock, Rustic Canyon or Wild Horse. The other you mentioned I have played:

Ocean Course: excellent but not as thrilling as Whistling Straits

TPC Sawgrass: A masterpiece by Pete Dye but just too hard

World Woods Pine Barrens: The 2nd time I played it was in such poor condition, asd it is not in Pine Valley's class


Tom:

Lakota has some weak holes on the back nine, just as Friars Head has some weak holes in the potato batch, just a Pebble's 1,2,3 are really weak holes, just as Cypress has some weak holes,  but that did not keep me from including those.

I don't play the match play game to prove one course is better or worse than the other, I look at the whole and the sum of the parts, the total experience as my criteria.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Lakota has some weak holes on the back nine, just as Friars Head has some weak holes in the potato batch, just a Pebble's 1,2,3 are really weak holes, just as Cypress has some weak holes,  but that did not keep me from including those.

Cary,
If you won't compare the best holes at Lakota to the worst at Pine Valley, please compare the worst (or best) at Lakota to the worst at Friar's or Cypress.

Just because each course has worst holes, doesn't make them comparable.

Thanks
Mike

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