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Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Artistic License???
« on: June 29, 2005, 08:59:41 PM »
In the McGovern thread TE Paul mentions the contractor and artistic license.  That is the specific reason that has caused me to always believe there is more myth than substance in some of the "dead guy" theories.
That is also the reason it is important for an architect to have his own shapers.  It is next to impossible for an architect to maintain the same look from course to course unless he has the same builder.  It is also the reason you can tell which construction company built which course for some of the signature architects.
IMHO you can interpret a "Dead guy" bunker to different degrees with most people on this site defining it aesthetically.  However IMO it is much more important for it to be a "Dead Guy" Bunker strategically which to me would mean placement and depth.  I would assume it was the same for the "Dead guy" when he was interpreting to the contractor.  Aesthetics are extremely important but playability and strategy should have a greater influence on whether a design is what the "Dead guy" desired.  
 
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

TEPaul

Re:Artistic License???
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2005, 09:10:13 PM »
"In the McGovern thread TE Paul mentions the contractor and artistic license.  That is the specific reason that has caused me to always believe there is more myth than substance in some of the "dead guy" theories."

MikeY:

Some of these threads on Ross and Aronimink and McGovern and such have gotten pretty detailed and specific. And since they have it's more important to me than ever that contributors get the facts accurate of who said what. I don't believe it was me who made that remark about "artistic license" and such of contractors. I believe it was Tom MacWood who said that from some quote by Tom Simpson or Alister MacKenzie.

It was something I meant to answer but there was a lot going on today. It doesn't surprise me that a Mackenzie, at least, had strong opinions on that subject because the undeniable fact is Alister was a super "quick study" and he was also a man on the move real fast. The fact that he obviously took the time to communicate with a Morcom and Russel the way he apparently did does not surprise me at all for that reason. And on the other side of the coin it does not surprise me he got so heated in those letters with Morse over perhaps Pebble and Monterey over the objections the Pebble super threw at him and what he wanted to do.

T_MacWood

Re:Artistic License???
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2005, 09:11:16 PM »
How does artistic lisence prove that the dead guys were overrated? I would say if proves just the opposite...MacKenzie was giving totally differnt guys artistic liscence in Australia, UK, US-West, US-East and S.America and producing brilliant work...now that is real talent. He could have produced similar results in Antarctica.

I've never quite understood why you believe golf architecture is incapable of producing great designers.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Artistic License???
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2005, 09:22:33 PM »


I've never quite understood why you believe golf architecture is incapable of producing great designers.

TE,
Sorry if I got it wrong,  all those quotes and going back and forth get me confused.

Tom Mac,
I never said golf architecture did not produce great designers.  I believe money produces great designers of golf.  I just don't go for all the hype for the dead guys.....years of good maintenace($$$$), good clubs($$$$$) and network($$$$) help to position old clubs.  Myself, I much prefer to play Dead guy stuff when I can travel but I sincerely believe you guys think about their product much moe than they ever did.  And I am not judging whether that is good or bad.  It is a hobby...more power to it...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

T_MacWood

Re:Artistic License???
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2005, 09:32:42 PM »
I always get the impression when you discuss the over-hyped old guys, that your underlying message is if I were given the $$$$ I could produce similar work or if I had the artistic assistance I could produce similar work or if given an opportunity I could improve their work. I don't know the answer of the first two, but I sure hope you don't start conducting wide scale improvements of the old guys work.

Money doesn't hurt no doubt, but most of these over-hyped old guys had modest beginnings, the money didn't come until they proved themselves.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Artistic License???
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2005, 09:49:25 PM »
Tom Mac,
As you say you don't have the answer for the first two and if you read me correctly...I was saying that most of the dead guy stuff did not need wide scale improvement.....and when I mentioned $$$$, I did not say to the architect himself......I said to the project over a significant number of years vs. new projects.....$$$$$ after they were gone

I respect the dead guys and their accomplishments but I don't worship them and over analyze them....I think one should learn from their work and then go and do their own thing....
do you think most lawyers respect or worship Johnny Cochran or F Lee Bailey...I doubt it....but I bet plenty of the public thinks they are the man.....perception?????

I just have a different perception of the dead guys
« Last Edit: June 29, 2005, 09:50:27 PM by Mike_Young »
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Geoffrey Childs

Re:Artistic License???
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2005, 10:06:11 PM »


I've never quite understood why you believe golf architecture is incapable of producing great designers.

TE,
Sorry if I got it wrong,  all those quotes and going back and forth get me confused.

Tom Mac,
I never said golf architecture did not produce great designers.  I believe money produces great designers of golf.  I just don't go for all the hype for the dead guys.....years of good maintenace($$$$), good clubs($$$$$) and network($$$$) help to position old clubs.  Myself, I much prefer to play Dead guy stuff when I can travel but I sincerely believe you guys think about their product much moe than they ever did.  And I am not judging whether that is good or bad.  It is a hobby...more power to it...

Mike - How do you explain truly great designs like Bethpage Black where neglect over the course of decades failed to erase its features.  It started from depression labor and a great routing and bunkering.  No money there.  In fact, one can argue that it was in fact the lack of money that saved it.  I could just imagine a 1950's redesign if money were available. Similar features remain intact at several very good NY city munis because no funds were available to "upgrade" those very good designs.  Money can't buy good design unless you use it to hire an architect capable of doing quality work.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Artistic License???
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2005, 10:10:36 PM »
Geoffrey,
I agree with your point....same at my club....but I think in many cases that is the exception.....Bethpage is a renovation( which I like) and it seems this site is really into restoration, which I don't believe exist.
Mike
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

A_Clay_Man

Re:Artistic License???
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2005, 11:11:45 PM »
Mike- I'd much rather see an evolved dead guy bunker looking all narly and old, only playable when a well executed shot is performed.
One need only look at Pacific Grove's recently redone bunkers,that Neville had made in 1960, to illustrate Behr's definition of a Mrs. Grundy, or a Nursemaid.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2005, 11:12:08 PM by Adam Clayman »

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Artistic License???
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2005, 11:15:19 PM »
Adam,
All I am saying is the dead guy can have a different style knarly bunker at each course according to who took artistic license.
How you doing out there?
Mike
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

TEPaul

Re:Artistic License???
« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2005, 12:01:48 AM »
Are we back on Bethpage Black? That's too bad because in my opinion I sense that Ron Whitten got that story a lot more right than many to most on here can figure out how to understand, admit or acknowledge. I feel the truth of that course can probably be found in A.W. Tillinghast's own words and comments on the subjects.

Those on here who just assume a guy like Burbeck could never have done some of the things that Whitten and others, practically including Tillinghast said he did (if those on here would just pay attention) is the truth of the matter. On that course one really does need to understand how golf architecture really does work between diffferent people both in reality of what they contribute in different ways and on the ground.

After all that discussion and arguing about it on here and following what appeared to be the last word article on the truth of the whole thing by one Tom MacWood, is the first time I really did begin to feel that this guy Tom MacWood and the way he analyzes, assumes and concludes things really does need constant vigilance and continuous challenge.

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Artistic License???
« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2005, 12:24:04 AM »
Mike — "It is next to impossible for an architect to maintain the same look from course to course unless he has the same builder."

Firstly, I disagree. There are plenty of shapers who can emulate looks.

Secondly, are you advocating that an architect should maintain a look from course to course? is this a good quality for an architect to have.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2005, 12:25:21 AM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Artistic License???
« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2005, 07:04:49 AM »
Forrest,
I guess we do disagree a little on the subject of shapers.  I have seen some signature courses where you can definitely tell which shaper built which bunker.  There is a different look completely.  And I do feel that it is much better to maintain your same crew whenever possible.  I think those on here are saying it when they talk about the group they call " the boys" or whatever.  I just don't like changing shapers.
"should architect change look from course to course".....I don't know....I do, but I think it is critical that one not change within a course.....
And, don't you think from listening to some of these discussions that many feel some of the dead guys maintained the same look from course to course....otherwise how can they determine some of these opinions that are discussed on here?
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Artistic License???
« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2005, 08:49:49 AM »
Mike — Our contracts require that builders retain the same shapers. In many instances we bring a shaper to the job whom we feel will be best suited for the site and design.

But...I am not sure that, as you put it, "...it is critical that one not change within a course..." Oakmont is a wonderful example of 18 different holes that look as if each may have been built by different crews and with a design which may have been inspired by different objectives. Some of my favorite courses are ones which evolved. A change here and there has created a unique experience.

Some discussions here do laud the dead guys "style" when it comes to the aesthetic — the "look." I always take the opinions expressed about dead architects by wondering what these old boys would say if they could weigh in on the discussion — in many cases I feel they would be amused beyond their wildest dreams! At the fetish associated with certain aspects of golf architecture by the modern enthusiast...by the over complication...by the convictions which many times do not have any impact to the game.

— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

T_MacWood

Re:Artistic License???
« Reply #14 on: June 30, 2005, 09:06:08 AM »
Forrest
If style, aesthetics or 'the look' are not important...a fetish associated with modern enthusiasts...why do you bring a specific shaper who you feel will be best suited to the site and your design?

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Artistic License???
« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2005, 09:36:57 AM »
I do not believe they are not important. But I am of the belief that they are well overrated many times.

We bring a specific shaper to the work who fits the job, knows the type of land and will be there from beginning to end in order that communication be uninterrupted. If style is essential, then that is a plus, too.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

T_MacWood

Re:Artistic License???
« Reply #16 on: June 30, 2005, 11:48:19 AM »
Forrest
What are examples of some of your designs, redesigns or restorations where style or aesthetics was not essential?

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Artistic License???
« Reply #17 on: June 30, 2005, 12:26:28 PM »
At Phantom Horse (Phoenix) the land dictated the design to such an extent that we rarely cared about style — aesthetics are always a consideration, but here the land provided its own dose of style. To try and out-do the land would have been a mistake. Each hole takes on a slightly different look and puzzle for the golfer — that was our goal, and I believe it works well.

At The Hideout in Utah I instructed the shaper to — at every turn — think simple and not flashy. By this, I meant to be honest in their feature work and not try and outdo the territorial views, or the nuances that the land offered — I would say that course is a poster child for the aesthetics being land and site driven, not architect/shaper driven. If we had anything to do with the aesthetics, it comes from the land almost always, and not from the talents of the shaper to drive a style, or their ideas, of what might make a good "look" or a style.

At The Links at Las Palomas the dunes and terrain provided all the style we needed. We just made sure to embrace it and not get in its way.

---

My summary of style and aesthetics is as follows: I feel they are important, but less so than the game and the challenge. The thrill of golf suffers when the style and "look" is at the forefront. It is probably best when all things come together "perfectly" — the strategy, the site, the land, the natural features, the interest, uniqueness and, not forgotten, an appropriate amount of style.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2005, 12:28:36 PM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

T_MacWood

Re:Artistic License???
« Reply #18 on: June 30, 2005, 12:31:14 PM »
I'd love to see some pictures of these courses....can you post them?

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Artistic License???
« Reply #19 on: June 30, 2005, 12:40:53 PM »
I am not a post-savy guy. But our website has some images, as does my GCA interview. I assumed you had seen them, played them and had pin-ups on your GCA-control room!
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Artistic License???
« Reply #20 on: June 30, 2005, 02:58:54 PM »
Forrest,
How do you get to be a GCA pin-up?
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Artistic License???
« Reply #21 on: June 30, 2005, 03:34:36 PM »
I believe it is bestowed after you've known Ran for a few years.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

A_Clay_Man

Re:Artistic License???
« Reply #22 on: June 30, 2005, 06:08:21 PM »
Maybe I can help.

I don't see any pictures so here's a schematic of the 17th at Phantom Horse.

The hideout is even tougher to find images but here's what I believe is the third green.



They did have this one on the Phantom Horse web site.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Artistic License???
« Reply #23 on: June 30, 2005, 09:48:49 PM »
Mike — Our contracts require that builders retain the same shapers. In many instances we bring a shaper to the job whom we feel will be best suited for the site and design.

But...I am not sure that, as you put it, "...it is critical that one not change within a course..." Oakmont is a wonderful example of 18 different holes that look as if each may have been built by different crews and with a design which may have been inspired by different objectives. Some of my favorite courses are ones which evolved. A change here and there has created a unique experience.

Some discussions here do laud the dead guys "style" when it comes to the aesthetic — the "look." I always take the opinions expressed about dead architects by wondering what these old boys would say if they could weigh in on the discussion — in many cases I feel they would be amused beyond their wildest dreams! At the fetish associated with certain aspects of golf architecture by the modern enthusiast...by the over complication...by the convictions which many times do not have any impact to the game.


I have never looked at Oakmont that way...but I think we are saying the same thing just in a different manner.
And there is no doubt in my mind that if the dead guys were listening they would have quite a laugh at some of this stuff.

And in you later post....
"I would say that course is a poster child for the aesthetics being land and site driven, not architect/shaper driven. If we had anything to do with the aesthetics, it comes from the land almost always, and not from the talents of the shaper to drive a style, or their ideas, of what might make a good "look" or a style."
That is a good way to sum up shaping...well spoken...
I think what you say about where aesthetics and style fit in the overall scheme is exactly where the dead guys would have placed it and is the same reasoning they would have for arguing some of the exhausted points we read on here.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Artistic License???
« Reply #24 on: June 30, 2005, 11:36:34 PM »
Please understand that the green with water fronting it shown for Phantom Horse in Adam's post is NOT my green — that is the ill-advised change to the area which used to be the beautiful opening hole along a tranquil lagoon — now it is an awful island green, blind, par-4, eighteenth hole. I hate it for many reasons. Only one of which is the fact I was not asked to be involved in the change. It still remains as a fascinating 16-hole course!
« Last Edit: June 30, 2005, 11:37:19 PM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

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