Bethpage under US Open-esque conditions

[NAF]

I played the Black yesterday under some unique conditions as my company had an outing there.  The Super put in the Black's 2002 US Open pin placements for Sunday and also put flags in the fairways to denote where Tiger hit his shots on that final day.. We played a combo of the blue and white tees which was very long.  The rough was about 3 inches (2 inches less than the Open) and the greens were rock hard (most approaches went to the back or into the collared rough) and stimped around 10.5/11.  We played in about a 10-15mph breeze.  My caddie was on the maintenance crew so I got some valuable info about where things were for the Open vis a vis fairway lines, stimp speed, etc.

Some observations:

1) With Tiger hitting a steel shafted driver or 3 wood in 2002, I was still 20-30 yards shorter than him on MY best drives and I am not short from tees he hit behind of.. That would put him 40-60 yards longer than my best shots now.  For example on #4 hit a perfect 275 yard drive and he still had me beat by 25 yards (he was parked in front of the glacial bunker).  I'm amazed at how LONG in person he truly is.

2) The 10th fairway has been put back where it was pre the Open (obviously).. It starts about 20 yards back of where it was for the tournament. About 255 carry from the back.

3) With rock hard greens, it is amazing how difficult the course is to hold approaches and how the subtleties of putting them become.  The Black looks to have dull greens (except for say #12, #15) but they are much better than I thought when actually putted.  The US open pins were very inaccessable to the average golfer and in spots I was surprised to see them in.

4) Rees Jones added a new extention to the 14th green and new pin positon (obviously)..

5) The Black is the toughest examination I've played.  I'd love to comp it vs. Oakmont.

[Kyle Harris]

That's what those flags were. Doug Braunsdorf and I were wondering about that. The rough looked really thick from the Red on Wednesday, was that the case?

Which tees did you play? What did you think of the new tees on 5 and 10?

[NAF]

New Tee on 5 makes it I guess 270ish to carry the bunker all the way if you take the tiger line..

We played one tee up from the US Open tee on #10.. I can't imagine playing the new tee Kyle.. Can't fathom how hard it will be from there..

Tiger was -3 in 2002, I reckon even with technology if it plays anything like it did then (2002), par will be tough to break although that is a cliche in US open parlance.

[Phil_the_Author]

Naf,

For as often as I've played the Black in my life I still get jealous when I hear someone enjoyed it on a day I couldn't be there!  

You wrote, "The rough was about 3 inches (2 inches less than the Open) and the greens were rock hard (most approaches went to the back or into the collared rough) and stimped around 10.5/11."

A couple of thoughts. The rough for the Open was cut at 3 & 1/2 inches in height - not 5. In fact they were lowered by a 1/2 inch the week before the Open because the USGA felt that the rough was unfair at that height. This is one time the USGA should get credit for doing it right.

Also, although you describe the course as playing at U.S. Open conditions, at 11 on the stimp, they were still slow compared to the Open where most greens were at 13 & a few even got to 14 if not more. The subtleties of the Black's greens cause many a surprising large break on putts when at these speeds.

You also said, "Rees Jones added a new extention to the 14th green and new pin positon (obviously).." Actually he didn't. That wonderful new back section which will allow for a world of great pin positions was suggested and constructed by Craig Currier.

I had the privilege of being with Craig, Rees, Mike Davis & a few others last October when they toured the course to think about possible tweakings to the course for 2009. When we got to #14, Rees turned to Craig and said, "Now what is this idea of yours to extend the green in the back?"

Craig explained what he wanted to do & everyone loved the idea. Rees then suggested that since work was being done anyway, why not extend the front left portion forward, creating a shallow tongue and at the same time add a new bunker left of the green to squeeze it in?

All three suggestions were done and it has brought about a much better hole with a great number of difficult pin positions added.

There were other suggestions made that day which are still being considered.

[NAF]

Phil-

All of my comments were from the member of Craig's staff who was my caddie and has been there for the last few years, he was the one who told me the rough height, stimpmeter and about Rees and the 14th holes.  I guess I was misinformed but feel better knowing the rough was close to US Open quality!

The maintenance guy did say 14 on the stimp was where they were for the Open but he said they were much softer greens than when we played and held better (probably b/c of the weather)..

[Gerry B]

Played it right after the 2002 open - it was a beast then and is now.

Sidebar - To make matters worse the foursome in front of us  decided that they wanted to play the course from the tips - not one of them hit a fairway on the 1st 5 holes  - I suspect that the best player in their group was a 24  - 28 index at best- it was  ugly to watch. On holes 4 and 5 I don't think that anyone in their group took less than a quad. I went to the 6th tee box after hitting my approach shot into #5 and  politely suggested that the white tees at 6700 yds was still a  great test of golf- received the bronx cheer reply - and we were teeing off on #12 at the 4 hour mark - final tally -a 6 hr and 20 minute round - how to ruin a round of golf on a great golf course. Went back there  last year and our fourball completed a round in 4 hours and 39 minutes. Our caddies said it was their fastest round ever by 45 minutes. And we had fun. Go figure!

[Matt_Ward]

Noel:

With no disrespect to the Black Course I truly love -- but the totality of Oakmont is beyond that of the Black. The greens at Oakmont have no peer when at full speed.

P.S. Glad to see the changs at #14 -- it's too weak of a hole previously.

Couple of other points -- I hope the folks there finally keep the fairway cut at the 6th and not go with the dopey idea of having a rough inclusion where it was for the '02 event.

One other idea -- I'd like them to rotate the length of the 7th and play it as 4-par on two rounds and a 5-par for the other two.

The 18th also needs a real tweaking. Playing it as an uphill short par-4 would bring some excitement back to the closing hole which I believe is one of the main lacking areas of the course.

Noel -- few courses I have played test the driver like the Black does. Unless the player is hitting the ball with the driver the net result will be akin to pissing on the Chicago fire. Futile !!!

[johnk]

NAFfer,

I appreciate the point and the details.  However, it strikes me that it takes a fair amount of hubris to even try to compare the games of handicap players to the pros under US Open conditions!

Nothing against your game, but I find it humorous to even think about your game (much less mine) in comparison to Tiger's - and it's absurd under US Open conditions.  Your handicap is what? An 8? You and I would not have a chance of breaking 100 in the US Open.

For example today, Tiger's got a driving average on the two measured holes of 334...   And I think distance is the area of the game where you are closest to Tiger!

Seriously, no insult to your talents - my point is that the pros are really on an alien level compared to handicap players.

[Patrick_Mucci]

John,

I tend to agree with your assessment.

Many get lulled to sleep by looking at the leader board and forget that some of the best players in the world can't break 80 on a U.S. Open golf course.

Playing BPB or any other U.S. Open golf course in a social setting is light years removed from tournament golf.

Nerves alone probably adds 10 or more shots to a round.

Those guys are so good it's hard to believe, except if you're Shivas, who doesn't think they're that good to begin with  

[Joe Perches]

I find it humorous to even think about your game (much less mine) in comparison to Tiger's - and it's absurd under US Open conditions.  Your handicap is what? An 8? You and I would not have a chance of breaking 100 in the US Open.

How many balls would you need to play in an individual better-ball style format to play better than Tiger?

Hit some number of drivers, take the best one, hit the same number approaches from the best spot, etc.

I'd probably need 4.  Maybe 5.

[johnk]

Joe,

That's a funny question, because basically I could hit drivers for the rest of my life and NEVER hit one within 30 yards of Tiger's average (i.e. 334 today).  So assume I limit myself to 10 drives.  I'm at least 60yds behind Tiger.  On a PGA tour par 4 of 480yds, I'm hitting a 5 wood in now.  He's got a wedge, of course.  So I probably need at least 30 approach shots before I can get one inside of him -- or at least to 20 feet.

At least with putting, I might need only 10 putts to make a birdie from under 20 feet.  So perhaps if I could take 50 swings per hole and count only the best ones, I would be able to take Tiger on a PGA tour course.

Honestly, I think you could give a scratch club player 5 chances at each shot.  If you put him at US Open setup on BPB or PH2 against Tiger, no way would he beat Tiger even with 4 mullys per shot.  He simply doesn't have the power, the iron game or the short game, and 5 chances isn't enough for luck to prevail.

[Patrick_Mucci]

John & Joe,

At a U.S. Open, with the tee lined tightly with hundreds or thousands of spectators, you'd have to pass out flak jackets and helmets to insure the safety of the crowd.

And, you could make it best ball of ten and it wouldn't help.

Amateurs simply aren't long enough, strong enough, steady enough and skilled enough to negotiate a U.S. Open golf course under tournament conditons.

Trying to match Tiger Woods's putting skills, short game skills, etc., etc.. with him hitting driver - sand wedge into greens that most amateurs can't reach in two is futile.

At a U.S. Open they are at another level, and the top 20 are at yet another level.  The only hope an amateur would have would be to employ a strategy I used when playing Pinehurst # 2 in the North - South Amateur, held in late April, years ago.

I had to play Allan Miller, a Walker Cup golfer and All-American from Georgia, in the second or third round.  I was coming off of a long winter and had occupied my time by playing football, basketball and hockey, so my golf in April was mediocre at best.  Allan was in the midst of golf season and in such good form that the day before our match he beat his opponent 10 and 8, almost setting the course record at Pinehurst # 2.

Everybody at the North South knew each other, it was like an annual spring, golfing get together, and everyone was friendly.

What strategy could I develop for my match with hiim ?  
Then it dawned on me.
Road Trip !
So out we went to 2 or 3 in the morning drinking, dining, drinking, laughing, drinking, and more drinking.
I always, and continue to, water my Canadian Club down with ginger ale, so I drank lightly and was ready to play early the next morning.  Unfortunately, so was he, and he beat me 4 & 3 or 5 & 4..
When I stated that the previous night's activities didn't seem to adversely affect his game, he said, why should they, he does that every night.   Ah, to be back in college again.

So, unless you're prepared for off course activities, you can forget about beating these guys under tournament conditions at a U.S. Open golf course.  It ain't gonna happen.

You're average scratch player from your local club has a hard time breaking 80 in his State Amateur and State Open Tournaments, let alone a golf course set up for the U.S. Open.

[NAF]

JK, never was trying to insinuate I have anything close to TW.. I was just amazed by how far the divide was playing from up tees etc and how much further he was than I was with inferior equipment.  I was just amazed that is all.

[Joe Perches]

If today Corey Pavin can average 255 off the tee and be 5 over after 3 rounds playing 1 ball, imagine how many under he would be if he got to play 2 balls and take the best one each time.

In my opinion, Mr. Pavin would finish the tournament at least 16 under.

If a normal 10 handicap got to play 4 or 5 balls and played the best one, I believe that person would rarely make bogey, even under US Open conditions.  Well except perhaps the holes with the forced 260 yard carries, most would just have to hit 3 from the drop area.

[johnk]

Joe,

The US Open fairways are 25 - 28 yards wide, and very firm.  Stand behind a tee and look at the driving area.  Most 10 handicappers couldn't get a single drive out of 5 to go 220 yards out and stay in the fairway.

If they can't find a fairway, they're not making a par, no matter how many shots they get from the rough.

If they did find a fairway, they'd have 220+ yards to the green, and wouldn't be able to keep any of those approaches in the short grass either.

On the par 3s, 10 handicappers wouldn't hit the green with 5 shots.  We're talking 180 - 230 yard holes with very firm greens.
Remeber that Vijay, Tiger et all hit their 4-5 irons about twice as high as a 10hcp hits a 9 iron.

If you watch Vijay chip off and across greens today, I wonder what you think the 10hcp would do with those chips...  

Finally how many 10hcps have any speed control and could handle greens running at true 12+ on the stimp?  A: NONE.

Bogeys and worse would be quite likely with 4 mullys per shot.  

We can agree to disagree on this hypothetical fantasy, but I think you are vastly underestimating the difficulty of the US Open setup and the chasm between the skills/abilities of a 10hcp vs the top 30 players in the world.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Joe Perches,

Sam Snead made a good sum of money hustling amateurs with the bet you're proposing, and that wasn't on a U.S. Open site.

He would give them five drives a hole and they could take their best one.

They were usually as wild as can be off the tee due to the fact that they felt they could hit it as hard as they wanted because they had more balls to play.  And, they were usually fatiqued by the time they got to the 9th hole.

And, that wasn't under U.S. Open conditions.

On U.S. Open greens mosts 10 handicappers would be three, four and five putting every green, with their firm and fast nature and the pressure to perform.   If the best players in the world have difficulty putting and recovering what chance would a 10 handicapper have ?

You bring the bona fide 10 handicap, and I'll try to arrange Shinnecock, Baltusrol, Winged Foot or Bethpage when the greens are very fast, probably in the early fall.

P.S.  Don't forget to bring CASH

[JLahrman]

Shinnecock, Baltusrol, WF, Bethpage?

You've got your lab rat here.  I'm a 7 but it'll have to do.  Thanks for bankrolling me Joe.  Pat, drop me a line and I'll rearrange my work schedule.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim,

Volunteers aren't accepted.  
I've already received a dozen requests off line, you'd be the 12th alternate.  

Joe's on his own with respect to selecting a 10 handicapper he knows.

But, you can take either side of the line, the betting window remains open.

[JLahrman]

Said in jest but I'm interested to hear the actual terms of any bet.

[blasbe1]

I played the Black last week and after missing many fairways, I paced number 16 off in the middle of the landing area.  About 26 paces wide, from a highly elevated tee hmm . . . sounds a bit Openish to me.  BTW, all the fairways were quite narrow, especially the left side of 15, it seemed like the primary rough came halfway into the old fairway.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Goosen, a two time U.S. Open champ, and 54 hole leader shoots over 80, but some guys feel that 10 handicappers could be competitive playing best ball of 5 or 10 ?.

Gore, in second place after 54 holes shoots 84, but some guys feel that 10 handicapers could be competitive playing best ball of 5 or 10 ?

Browne, just off the lead after 54 holes couldn't break 80. but some guys feel that 10 handicappers could be competitive playing best ball of 5 or 10 ?

I'll let them play best ball of 20 and they won't be competitive, they're simply not long enough, strong enough or skilled enough to deal with the golf course and pressure.

But, we all have our fantasies.

[Don Herdrich]

I would like to jump in here with some $$$...........six figures against any wanna be 10 handicapper who thinks they can beat Pat's conditions.

[JLahrman]

Well as I mentioned I think we need to see some terms here.  What's the over/under?

[Patrick_Mucci]

JAL,

How would this sound ?

Winged Foot 2006
Best ball of 4 or 5
Tuesday after the Open

                     If he loses, Joe pays

Failure to Break par 70       even money
Failure to Break 80             20-1
Failure to Break 90             40-1
Failure to Break 100            60-1
Failure to Break 110            80-1

Joe,

How's that sound to you ?

Now remember, no galleries would be present, thus the pressure is greatly reduced.

[EAF]

I'm going back to visit LI in July and will definitely play BPB. I can hardly wait.

Has the 14th hole been changed since the 2003 season? Has a bunker been built into the slope that is on the left side of the 14th green? And I recall that there was a possibility of building a new back tee on the other side of the service road that is behind the current 14th tee. Is that going to be done?

Thanks for the update.

Eric