[RE Blanks]

  When is the last time it took you 5 hours to play a round of golf?  I guess I am a half full kind of guy.  If you play a 4 hr round of golf that does not infringe on the others time, what does it matter?  I really belive that some people think that all purist play fast and therefore they must also.  This is the way they play in the UK so we better play fast also.  Play fast but don't let it ruin your day if a group in front of you is playing within the allotted time.

[ChipRoyce]

R E Blanks;
You hit it on the head - "allotted time". To you 4 hours is just fine, however, I share Tom Doak and others' opinion that it should be 3-3:30.

[RE Blanks]

Four hours is not my allotted time.  It is my clubs.  I can get around faster, but when you play in 3 hrs you start to infringe on those that are playing within the a clubs determined time.  

[tonyt]

Firstly, I agree with the points that so long as you are maintaining your place immediately behind the group ahead, then you are not too slow. "Allotted time" is not acceptable if it means you are further behind the group ahead. If they are bolting around in three hours, fine, you aren't compelled to keep up. But if they are marginally ahead of allotted time, then your group's responsibility is to remain immediately behind them and also play slightly ahead of allotted time. Its like a speed limit on the roads. You are not required nor are you advised to always use the full limit.

Nobody on a reasonable walking course is being rushed if they get around in 3hrs 45mins. If they feel rushed at this pace, somebody is doing something horribly wrong. A group that takes just over 4hrs as opposed to 3hrs 45mins is doing a lot more than smelling the roses.

I can imagine on a quiet day (no groups anywhere to be seen behind) when a friendly fourball is seeing a course for the first time for a casual hit, they may choose to lounge their way around in about 4hrs, and even 4hrs 15mins on a tougher walking course. That is with a couple of photos, walking back to further back tees for views and other looks, and maybe finishing a hole and then putting to a different hole location that looks cool. But once you play a game of golf (still quite leisurely) without undue delay with one ball by the rules, it is virtually impossible for able bodied humans to justify 4hrs if there is no waiting.

[Kyle Harris]

Best way to quicken up the pace of play comes before you tee off...

WAIT for the group in front of you to reach the green and pull out the flag before you hit your first tee shot.

It does wonders on the first par 3, and probably shaves twenty minutes off a round if a booked tee shot is regulated as such. Unfortunately, the scourge of the 8 minute 9 minute alternating starting time all but eliminates this possibility unless the players are good or quick, however, ten minute tee times are perfect.

A starter who tells you to do that is worth his weight in gold.

Question: How do you guys define 'keeping up with the group in front?'

[THuckaby2]

Tony - just a curiousity here - I was totally with you on this until you state:

But once you play a game of golf (still quite leisurely) without undue delay with one ball by the rules, it is virtually impossible for able bodied humans to justify 4hrs if there is no waiting.

I just played Bandon Trails yesterday in a foursome consisting of two separate head to head matches... pretty much as fast as golf can be played... guys picked up when out of the hole, lots of putts were conceded quickly, etc.... We never waited on a single shot... we were second group off the tee in the am, never saw the first group (twosome only) after they left the first green...

And it took 4 hrs, 15 minutes.

Why?

Damn tough course to walk, with some pretty serious hikes involved.

So be careful with those absolutes.

 

TH

ps - the group behind us never saw us again after we left #1 green also.

[Tim_Weiman]

RE Blanks:

I'm frankly amazed that anyone would start such a thread.

Slow play is such an overwhelming problem in America that we hardly need anyone to even suggest we need to slow down.

Like Tom Doak, my most enjoyable experiences playing golf were overseas (circa 1980's) - mostly Ireland - where playing under three hours was expected. The pace and rhythm were wonderful.

I also remember going out to Saunton in the UK in the late 1990's with Russell Talley. Having hurt his ribs playing ball the day before, Russell left me to play alone.........following a four ball playing for the club championship.

Given the circumstances, I thought it best to let the four ball clear the first green before teeing off. After all, I was a single following four guys playing for the club championship.

On the 16th hole I caught up to these gentlemen and was forced to wait about 2-3 minutes.

Later, when I made it to the clubhouse, all four men apologized for holding me up. They said they were embarrassed to do that to a visitor.

When that kind of attitude makes its way to the States, perhaps an occasional "slow down" message would be okay.

But, we are a long way from that.

We need to do far more to encourage people to move on a golf course than we are currently doing.

When I was a kid, there were plenty of grumpy old men who taught kids to move along.......unfortunately we just don't have those guys anymore.

[tonyt]

Tony - just a curiousity here - I was totally with you on this until you state:

But once you play a game of golf (still quite leisurely) without undue delay with one ball by the rules, it is virtually impossible for able bodied humans to justify 4hrs if there is no waiting.

I just played Bandon Trails yesterday in a foursome consisting of two separate head to head matches... pretty much as fast as golf can be played... guys picked up when out of the hole, lots of putts were conceded quickly, etc.... We never waited on a single shot... we were second group off the tee in the am, never saw the first group (twosome only) after they left the first green...

And it took 4 hrs, 15 minutes.

Why?

Damn tough course to walk, with some pretty serious hikes involved.

So be careful with those absolutes.

 

TH

ps - the group behind us never saw us again after we left #1 green also.

Tom,

re-read my post. I made a specific exception for golfers who were seeing a course for the first time, and also for courses that are a more difficult or longer than average walk. My absolute as I understand it implies an average walking course being played by a group familiar with the course. I even gave the 4hr 15min time, the time you have given for your group.

Kyle,

Keeping up implies that whilst you may not have to wait, that the first player to play to the green is ready or just about ready to do so when the flagstick has been replaced by the group in front.

[A_Clay_Man]

By far the largest justification for slow play that I have witnessed, is the ME ME ME attitude, that is pervasive in American society and golf.

You show me a considerate golfer, and I'll show you someone who gets aroound in an efficient and timely manner.

[Kyle Harris]

Tony,

At what point is that next shot hit? It's the little things like that that are the difference between a 4 hour round and a 4 and a half hour round. Frankly, as a player, I prefer a continuous flow to the game, and not a lot of start stop (at least minimally) within the foursome.

Ideally, the group will just be ready when the group in front leaves the green.

[Brent Hutto]

Frankly, as a player, I prefer a continuous flow to the game, and not a lot of start stop (at least minimally) within the foursome.

I had a round like that yesterday, at least the first 13 holes of it. The course was sopping wet so it was cart paths only (I appeared to be the only soul on the property not in a cart, alas) and I knew the pace would be slow. I was able to adjust my walking pace to take the same amount of time as my cart-path-bound playing companions. I'd say there were only a handful of times that anyone had to wait even a few second on another and we ended playing pretty much honors golf even though it didn't matter.

At the turn I looked at the starter's clock and we were a couple minutes shy of two hours. That's about the point at which "taking my time" getting to the ball transitions to "stop and wait" before shots. When the carts are allowed on the fairway I can walk at my normal pace and the carts guys either keep up with or stay just ahead of me at about a 1:40-1:50 pace per nine. The game is so joyful at that pace whether you're playing well or poorly. Walking and hitting the golf ball fall into such a natural rhythm when nobody is holding you up for random intervals while they jerk around.

When we got to the fourteenth hole, gridlock ensued. There were two groups waiting and it took us almost two hours to play the last five holes (and three of them are short, drop shot Par 3's). Torture. If our match hadn't been close I'd have probably walked in and practiced my chipping for an hour instead of standing around the golf course.

Postscript: Yesterday was an occasion when I get to marvel at the way good, strong young players hit the ball nowadays. My partner in our little fourball was a 16-year-old who is a good but not great player at the state level. He hits the ball so very high that you think it can't possibly carry far but it does. Driver-wedge or driver-chip on lots of holes (he was playing from the regular men's tees with us middle-agers) and if he hits it in the woods he can loft a short iron up and over the pine trees that goes 100 feet in the air but still carries 140-150 yards. That's the first big-hitting lefty I've ever played with and it was fun. My own ball is the only lefty ballflight I usually see so when he'd start one high and left (just like my own shots) my system would go on high alert to see how far into the woods it would end up. Instead it would of course hook about 20 yards and finish back in the fairway (funny, mine never do that).

[RE Blanks]

How is fast play any diffenent than slow play?  If a club establishes an allotted time for 18 holes, does fast or slow play not hinder the players adhering to the allotted time?  HOw is one worse than the other?

[Patrick_Mucci]

RE Blanks,

So I can play another 18.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Question: How do you guys define 'keeping up with the group in front?'

Kyle-

 I try to be ready to hit once the group in front of me moves out of range; in other words, let's say we're playing a par 4.  Whatever club I'm going to hit, I will wait for the group to be out of range before I hit, but I try to factor in a few extra yards for a nutted shot.  Just in case.  But nothing extravagant.  

On a par 3, if the group behind us is a strong group, one that hits greens, I'll wave them up.  Doesn't always happen, though.  Quick story.  Got a story for you--I'll save it for Wednesday.  Let's hope the LI traffic isn't bad!

  Seriously, though, I just try to play ready golf.  

  I'm not perfect, and if my day's going poorly, I may take a few extra practice swings, to try to get some sort of feeling of the proper motion.  

[Kyle Harris]

Doug,

Your bring up an excellent point about Par 3s... pace of play is helped immensely if you let the group behind you hit up while you are preparing to putt. It gets people through the bottleneck.

[THuckaby2]

Tony:

I'm not trying to be difficult, honest.  I'm with you in general on how long golf should take.  I just don't like absolutes.

Because....this was our second time playing the course, we knew where to go, and there was no great figuring out that needed to be done.  We were actively trying to go fast - some guys had planes to catch.

Still it took 4hrs 15 mins.

And the sole reason is that it's a very difficult walk.

So to make me happy, add that to your exceptions, ok?  That is, understand that a difficult walk (hikes from green to tee, large hills, etc.) can make a round take longer than any pre-set time.

Thanks!

TH

[Patrick_Mucci]

RE Blanks,

If you take more than 3:30 to play 18 holes, you're doing something, or a lot of things wrong.

The set up and golf swing take about 10 seconds.
If you score 100, that takes a total of 16.6 minutes for 18 holes.  What are you doing with the rest of your time ?

If you walk at 2 miles per hour, it only takes two hours to walk a 7,000 yard golf course.  That's 2 hours and 16.6 minutes.  What are you doing with the rest of your time ?

When people ask, "why is golf losing it's popularity ?"
It's in part because they don't want to spend 6 hours doing what should take 3 hours.   Time is precious and shouldn't be wasted.

Play faster, you're holding up the entire golf course.  

[George Pazin]

The biggest problem with accepting a 4 hour round as desirable is that it inevitably trickles into 4:10, 4:20, and the next thing you know it's 5+.

It is ridiculously easy to play the vast majority of walkable courses in the world in 3:30, even if you're taking as many strokes as me. If you want to spend that extra half hour on the course, finish early and go back to the putting green or observe the 9th or 18th or something.

[THuckaby2]

All these absolutes are pretty funny.

Are you guys forgetting that how the course is laid out has a little bit to do with this?

I'd like to see any of you have four golfers all play out their own ball, even in match play as I did, and get around Bandon Trails in less than four hours.  Same goes for the other two courses up there really.  Oh, I suppose with the right incentive it could be done - one could run, pick up on every green, etc. - but playing normal golf, well...

Given a flat course with no long green to tee hikes, well I accept your absolutes - it ought not to take more than 3 hours to play a match play round.

But the course layout changes things - a LOT.

TH

[RE Blanks]

Pat, how about reading what I have said in previous posts?  It does not take me 4 hours to play.  I can get around easily in 3:00.  My club has a time allotment of 4 hours.  I did not make this rule.  

I am a fast player that likes neither being delayed by a group in front or encroachment by an excessively fast group behind.  I especially can't stand being in a group that contains a player that all he does is complain about how slow the group in front is playing.

[Matt_Ward]

I just returned from a trip to Colorado and surrounding mountain time zone states and there is a facility within the greater Denver area that promotes the fact of four hour rounds.

I'll be posting more info on this but I can say from the reactions I gathered that having such a mandatory time limit is certainly most welcomed by many.

You can print money -- but once time is lost it's forever gone. Golf should not be comparable to Death March at Baatan.

[Patrick_Mucci]

REBlanks,

This past Sunday, a group in the middle of the 14th fairway had three holes open in front of them.

When one of my group approached them and told them that they had three holes open and were backing up the entire golf course, their response was that they were going to play in a little over 4 hours and weren't going to play faster.

The rule should be that you play under the alloted time and DON"T finish MORE than 8 minutes behind the group in front of you.

Playing in a set time doesn't work  golfers must also keep up with the group in front of them.  Once one group backs up play, the entire field behind them suffers.

[RE Blanks]

Pat, what is your allotted time?  Do you have one?  

[Patrick_Mucci]

REBlanks,

The first year we introduced a slow play policy times went from close to five hours to 4:05.

The allotment was 4:15 and you couldn't finish more than about 10 minutes behind the group in front of you.

Mulligans were not permitted on the first and tenth tees.

When we calculated the impact of mulligans on pace of play it was startling, hence they were prohibited.

The committee was two men and a woman.
While we know who the slow players are, on a given round they may or may not have been the culprit, hence slow play letters went to the entire foursome.

If a member received two slow play letters they couldn't tee off until after 2:00 pm on two consecutive friday, saturday and sundays.  A third slow play letter extended the penalty time.

Foursomes were clocked when the last golfer teed off and the clock was stopped when the last golfer holed out on # 18.
The differential was established, as was the time behind the prior group.  It worked great for as long as the club was committed to enforcing it, despite the stories and letters we received as excuses.  "The dog ate my homework" just didn't cut it, and once the membership understood that the board was concerned about the issue and serious about monitoring and enforcement, play speeded up dramatically.

I think things went well for a while, then complacency set in and we're starting to see longer rounds, although, we enjoyed relatively fast play for a good while.

Last sunday we played in 3:30 and could have played in 3:00 quite easily had we not been held up.  And, we weren't rushing.

At GCGC play is supposed to be completed in 3:30, but, enforcement doesn't seem to be a great concern at the present time.   If rounds begin to become extended, I'm sure that enforcement will follow.

[RE Blanks]

Sounds like a good system.  

But until your club establishes an allottment of 3:30, the group that finishes in 4 hrs is not out of line.  

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