Grove Park Inn

[TEPaul]

"Thanks for the advice (maybe you should pass it along to McCullough as well)...."

You're welcome. No need to pass anything along to David McCullough, he seems to be doing just fine as an historian and really excellent writer. When you get to the point he is then maybe you too can consider treating history as he does.

[TEPaul]

What was the deal with the hotel and the club (Asheville CC) in the mid 1920s? Was there some kind of hotel/club arrangement like the Lido in the beginning or that was intiially proposed for the Lido?

[Ken_Cotner]

Ken
It was much simpler in the 20's. It only became complicated in the 1970's when they started re-naming these courses. Prior to 1978 there was no Grove Park Inn golf course.

Sounds to me like it would have been MORE complicated back in the 20's -- Country Club of Asheville and Asheville Country Club?  Do we know the magazine had the correct name?

Ken

[T_MacWood]

Ken
There were four courses in Asheville in the 20's:

Asheville CC
Asheville Municipal
Biltmore Forest
Beaver Lake

Beaver Lake changed its name to CC of Asheville in the 70's.

[Kris Spence]

Tom,

Im not sure if anyone can definitively say whether or not the GPI course was Ross or not, unfortunately there is little evidence.  The GPI had at one time a small archive of photo's and records of the course including letters, news clippings and hotel log in sheets.  It wasn't very organized to say the least and as I found out recently may have been shipped off to storage.  I was able to go through the documents on two  occasions and I do seem to recall references of Ross being at the Grove Park, not necessarily doing design work but perhaps staying while in town.  There was a older gentlemen, perhaps 86 to 90 years old who lived behind the current 6th green who came and spoke to us about the original Ross course and that some of our work was exactly the way Ross did it.  

I think is was assumed by everyone that Ross expanded and remodeled portions of the course in 1924 with completion in 1926.  The stick routing shown in this post does not represent the routing shown on the 1940 aerial that we used in performing the work.  12 of the holes on the stick routing are the same as the aerial and the current course with 6 others having been changed significantly.

I didnt have alot of time for research when preparing the plan to renovate the course.  I did as much as I could but unfortunately came up empty handed at the Tuft Archives and the GPI archives.  The aerial was retrieved from the USGS and was taken from a very high altitude.  I used a magnifying glass to study the aerial and walked the property to discover any remaining features which were minimal.  The course depicted on the aerial certainly resembled Ross work, that in itself doesn't prove anything.  Also shown on the same aerial was the Beaver Lake course, both courses looked very similiar when looking at the bunker styles, green shapes etc.  Actually the Beaver Lake aerial had some very eccentric green shapes and what appeared to be an island green shaped like a triangle, I never was able to verify if it was part of the course or not.

I find your post's very interesting and I would love to see any drawings of Mr. Barkers work.  I am not familiar with his career or the style / character of his work but would be interested in seeing if all or portions of the GPI course depicted on the aerial were his work.  Send me a private note as I am interested in learning more about this topic.

[T_MacWood]

Kris
I don't have any drawings produced by Barker...I'm not even sure he made any drawings.

I'll scan some photos of his work, and post them. I've played a couple of his courses--Columbia and Mayfield--and as far as I can tell his greatest strength was his ability utilize the natural features of the site. Mayfield is brilliant in that respect, one of the best routings I've run across. Columbia is very good as well.

I'll send you the articles I've dug up.

[T_MacWood]

13th at Mayfield--the second of back to back 200+ par-3's


The 1st at Mayfield


The wild 2nd at Mayfield. The tee is in the distance, over the hill. The tee shot is like hitting over a two story building.


The 5th as seen from the tee (Mayfield).


The par-3 17th (Mayfield).


The 4th at Arcola (NJ).


A view of Asheville CC in 1914.


H.H. Barker

In the 1910's Mayfield was considered one of the premier courses in the US (certainly in the top 10, and closer #1 than to #10), in fact when they gave Barker his marching orders the goal was to build a course to rival Myopia--"beat Myopia" was their moto.

[BCrosby]

Tom MacW -

I am not familiar with Barker. Would love to hear more. But if he did all the courses pictured above, I don't think I've ever seen an architect with so many different "looks". I would not have thought that those courses were all by the same designer. Wow.

Bob

[T_MacWood]

Bob
I ran across an article that claimed Atlanta was the first city in the Deep South with three golf courses, and Barker designed two of them--Brookhaven (Capital City) and Druid Hills and redsigned the other--Atlanta Athletic Club. I believe the article was 1910 or 1911. Atlanta might be the best place to study his work....if there is anything left.

He was a fine English amateur from Yorkshire, who competed with Colt, Darwin, Hutchison, Hutchinson, Hilton, Ball, Maxwell, etc. He was a protege of Sandy Herd, and like Herd made the unusual move from top amateur to professional. He took the job of pro at GCGC in 1906 or 1907. That was a hell of a move...British amateur to head professional at one of the top clubs in the US, if not the top club. He was at GCGC when Travis made many of his historic changes...Travis (and American Golfer) were major promoters of Barker.

[BCrosby]

Tom -

Very interesting. I had no idea that Barker had an Atlanta connection.

Brookhaven's front nine is probably close to Barker's original design. The back has undergone a number of changes. BTW, Brookhaven is the site of Bobby Jones's first state-wide tournie win. He won the state am at Brookhaven in at the age of 14.

Druid Hills may still be reasonaby close to Barker's design as well, though Cupp recently redid a number of holes on the back.

Both courses are very short, in-town lay-outs that remain challenging.

Bob

[T_MacWood]

I recently discovered that Barker built a replica of the 12th at GCGC at Columbia (the 16th)...when Travis redesigned the course it appears he eliminated the mounds on that green...ironic.

[BCrosby]

Tom -

Now that I think more about it, Barker must have been the most protean architect ever. Not only do your pictures above reflect very different styles, but Barker's two courses in Atlanta look and feel nothing like one another. They may have been changed more than I think, but I would never have guessed they were by the same designer. Very strange.

BTW, both of his Atlanta courses were built in the middle of what were upscale neighborhoods. The kind of places that would have paid top dollar for a "name". Which I assume Barker was at the time.

Bob

[TEPaul]

"...when Travis redesigned the course it appears he eliminated the mounds on that green...ironic."

Tom MacW:

Really? At what point are you speaking of Travis redesigning GCGC or when do you suppose Travis removed the mounds (they were more like inline berms actually) on the 12th hole of GCGC? That old aerial photo of that green has been on this website a number of times that shows those inline berms on the green. Do you know when that photo taken? For some odd reason I think we might hear from Pat on this? Should be an interesting dialogue.

[T_MacWood]

The mounds at Columbia CC, not GCGC.

[Brent Hutto]

Speaking of "Country Club of Asheville" is it a course worth trying to play when I'm vacationing in the area this summer? Generally I don't care much for the few "mountain golf" courses I've played but I do love old classics no matter where they're situated.

[john_stiles]

Go play it !

The CC of Asheville course was  FKA Beaver Lake CC.  and a drawing of the 16th hole was featured in GC Thomas' 1927 book, Golf Architecture in America  (page 189).   The 16th is a long (600 yard) downhill par 5 with a creek on the left, which you end up playing across twice.  Several very good par 3s. Interesting short par 4s.  The first hole is not the best and there are a few mundane holes like any classic or modern course.

It is as interesting as Biltmore Forest and GPI in my opinion.

[Nathan Cashwell]

In "Golf Has Never Failed Me" Grove Park Inn is listed as a Remodel in 1926 as has been suggested.  There is also a photo in the book of one of GPI's greens, the 4th I think.  Don't know if that supports anything, but I found it interesting.

[Howard Riefs]

KSL Capital Partners yesterday announced its acquisition of the Grove Park Inn. The private equity firm's other golf resort holdings include The Homestead, Montelucia, Barton Creek, Rancho Las Palmas, The Royal Palm, La Costa Resort and ClubCorp.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/ksl-capital-partners-enters-into-an-agreement-to-acquire-the-historic-grove-park-inn-resort-spa-2012-04-10

The press release says that KSL is "planning an extensive $25 million renovation of the resort’s public areas, guest rooms, dining outlets, meeting spaces and spa that will honor the historic style of the resort while enhancing the guest experience."

Notably absent from the above list is the golf course ... though I admittedly don't know if it needs work. Anybody play it recently who can weigh in?

[Mark Saltzman]

Howard, some photos from last year:  http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,42411.html

[Jonathan Webb]

http://www.krisspence.com/groveparkgallery1.html

Kris Spence did some work here back around 2007.  I believe Course Doctors did the construction work.

[Carl Johnson]

KSL Capital Partners yesterday announced its acquisition of the Grove Park Inn. The private equity firm's other golf resort holdings include The Homestead, Montelucia, Barton Creek, Rancho Las Palmas, The Royal Palm, La Costa Resort and ClubCorp.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/ksl-capital-partners-enters-into-an-agreement-to-acquire-the-historic-grove-park-inn-resort-spa-2012-04-10

The press release says that KSL is "planning an extensive $25 million renovation of the resort’s public areas, guest rooms, dining outlets, meeting spaces and spa that will honor the historic style of the resort while enhancing the guest experience."

Notably absent from the above list is the golf course ... though I admittedly don't know if it needs work. Anybody play it recently who can weigh in?

I played the course two years ago (the only time I ever played it).  I would say it does not need any serious work, in the design sense.  One of my regular golfing group in Charlotte also has a home in Asheville where he lives most of the summer, and he has some sort of a seasonal "membership" at the Grove Park Inn course.  He loves it.  My recollection is that the only messy area is several adjacent uphill, downhill parallel holes that are divided by obviously artificial "tree fences."  There is also a wierd little par 3 that feels cramped in, but given the space limitations I don't think there is much that can be done about that.  Kris Spence did a good job in a redo about five to seven years ago.  Maintenance was pretty good when I visited.  My main concern would be how the new owners keep up the course.  Another thought. For a "resort" course I think it is a little too difficult.  Again, my recollection is that there were only three teeing areas on each hole.  If it could be reasonably done, I'd like to see a 4th set of tees added between the then-current forward and middle tees.

As someone who visits Asheville frequently, my main concern has to do with what the new owners will do with the hotel itself.  The main hotel building, the original, is a classic arts and crafts design with lots of museum quality arts and crafts furnishings in use and on display.  A number of years ago, but subsquent to when I began visiting Asheville in the 1960s, the family that owned the property added two huge, modern, unattractive wings that overwhelm the old building.  Moreover, a lot of tacky decor was added to the classic older stuff, which to my eye doesn't mix at all well.  My assumption is that the family decided that they had to make the changes they did to make the place a successful business venture in the modern age.  I've wondered whether the Inn could be operated more tastefully, and yet still make a go of it financially.  http://www.groveparkinn.com/

[rjsimper]

Course doesn't need work - it's fine. I would actually have been surprised if they said the 25 million was earmarked in part for work on the golf course.

No range, but no room.

[Howard Riefs]

Mark, Jonathan, Carl, Ryan -

Thanks for the additional insight on the Grove Park Inn. We stayed there a night back in 2006 but didn't have a chance to play the course. Instead, the day was spent touring the Biltmore and exploring the city. I appreciated the arts & crafts feel of the hotel and features such as the massive stone fireplaces, old photographs and mid-afternoon happy hour. 

[Carl Johnson]

Mark, Jonathan, Carl, Ryan -

Thanks for the additional insight on the Grove Park Inn. We stayed there a night back in 2006 but didn't have a chance to play the course. Instead, the day was spent touring the Biltmore and exploring the city. I appreciated the arts & crafts feel of the hotel and features such as the massive stone fireplaces, old photographs and mid-afternoon happy hour. 

Of further Grove Park Inn interest, see this collection of old post cards (what is referred to as the Asheville Country Club course is today the Grove Park Inn course, which the Inn acquired from Asheville CC -- can't recall the date -- after which ACC acquired and remodeled a different course (Beaver Lake) for its members): http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm4/results.php?CISOOP1=exact&CISOFIELD1=CISOSEARCHALL&CISORESTMP=/cdm4/results.php&CISOVIEWTMP=/cdm4/item_viewer.php&CISOMODE=grid&CISOGRID=thumbnail,A,1;title,A,1;subjec,A,0;descri,200,0;none,A,0;20;title,none,none,none,none&CISOBIB=title,A,1,N;titla,A,0,N;captio,200,0,N;none,A,0,N;none,A,0,N;20;title,none,none,none,none&CISOTHUMB=20+%284x5%29;title,none,none,none,none&CISOTITLE=20;title,none,none,none,none&CISOHIERA=20;captio,title,none,none,none&CISOSUPPRESS=1&CISOBOX1=grove+park+inn&CISOROOT=/nc_post

[Tom MacWood]

Grove Park Inn is one of the classic old hotels in America - one of a kind. A great example of the American Arts & Crafts movement, not only the architecture of the building, but also the furniture and other fixtures within the hotel.