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Mike_Cocking

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Re:Fescue Greens
« Reply #50 on: June 16, 2005, 05:36:15 AM »
I took a group of superiuntendents on a study tour of the uk and ireland last year and spent a great deal of time chatting with the various supers as well as playing and touring the courses.

Incidently the fescue / bent blend was very common.

Since the topic of fescue and st.andrews came up I thought some would be interested with the conversations we had with Euan Grant - the new super of TOC.

Greens are cut to 5mm during tournaments (with fairways as low as 6mm!!) but no lower as the fecsues will start to wilt.  This was the case at most other courses with a bent / fescue blend.  Even still with rolling and brushing the greens can get to 10.5 on the stimpmeter - any quicker and the 11th becomes unplayable.

The fescue component was estimated at 96% with 4% bents.  Intersetingly, Euan mentioned that a study had shown over 50 types of grasses in the greens - many over hundreds of years old.

 

Marc Haring

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Re:Fescue Greens
« Reply #51 on: June 16, 2005, 05:48:53 AM »

It's the same for earthworms. The locked up calcium in this instance makes it impossible for the earthworms to build up enough strength in their skeletal system.

Earthworms have skeletons?


I think so Steve. I'm going back to my old college days but I think they need it for rigidity or something. Must be hard work getting all that crap through their system all day long.

Craig Sweet

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Re:Fescue Greens
« Reply #52 on: June 16, 2005, 06:41:08 AM »
Joe Perches, we don't irrigate 120 days. Thus far this year, we have not irrigated at all. We fired up the system to get the bugs out and find leaks etc, but its been wet this spring. In another couple of weeks that could end and we might go 60 days without any rain to speak of. Then we will irrigate and it could be every night.

I'll check on our costs, but I think it's minimal as it is well water. The BIG DEAL in the west is water rights. If you have rights to water...enough water...you're ok.

Craig Sweet

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Re:Fescue Greens
« Reply #53 on: June 16, 2005, 06:43:43 AM »
Earthworms have a hydrostatic skeleton. It's liquid filled and is segmented.

RJ_Daley

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Re:Fescue Greens
« Reply #54 on: June 16, 2005, 09:37:35 AM »
There is plenty of information on this thread.  How about a recap to see where we are?

Craig's question about locating any other golf courses with fescue greens hasn't produced too many answers.  We have Barneygoogles, the Bandon courses mix of bent and fescue doing well because of their much more moderate climates, and the petering out efforts on fairways at Sand Hills and Whistling Straits-not their greens due to harshness of weather.  

I'm not sure what Dan Lucas is indicating about fescue on his fairways or greens.  Is he saying he is maintaining it and driving out poa through letting the turf burn out favoring his fescue stand, with a trade-off that the burnt condition leaves cartwheel tracks for a long time.  Or is he saying that he has to compromise and water more, loosing the competitive edge of the dried out fescue favoring soils, which will ultimately not support fescue and gives in to competing poa and bents?  When you start seeing burnt cartwheel tracks all over the place for weeks in droughty conditions, it is a visual detraction that most supers can't afford to endure the complaints from their members, it seems to me.

To my way of thinking, Eric seems to be saying what I thought in my original post, that while he can maintain a dominant fescue at Bandon, he is in a special position of good climate, and less wear and tear due to walking requirements.  Yet, even he asks what the big deal is with fescue when bent is obviously the more easily manageable under most all other conditions around the country and provides the roll and HOC flexibility to adjust stimps as desired.  

Doak also notes the influence of proximity of other courses where both climate, soils, and migration of poa and other species from golfers (shoes, seed migration, etc) will keep introducing the tainting of the fescue stand, as his High Pointe proved.

Craig, perhaps the answer to your question is: fescue for greens will probably have its next best chance when they start developing more courses in Patagonia... ;) ;D
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Marc Haring

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Re:Fescue Greens
« Reply #55 on: June 16, 2005, 10:12:38 AM »
But the upside is…….fescue provides a very firm traditional type surface, it requires very little water, practically no fertiliser and unlike bent and poa is largely disease free, so no fungicide. It can be an environmentalists dream.

Personally I think it is a great idea but only on a site where fescue is growing naturally. If it’s not indigenous, don’t even think about it.

RJ_Daley

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Re:Fescue Greens
« Reply #56 on: June 16, 2005, 11:53:58 AM »
Quote
...and unlike bent and poa is largely disease free, so no fungicide.

But Marc, as you point out how specific and narrow of a set of criteria are for the proper climate to grow it naturally, how can you say it is disease free?  Doesn't it have far greater susceptability to disease in humid or high relative humidity - hot conditions, which is most of north american summers...?
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Stuart Hallett

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Re:Fescue Greens
« Reply #57 on: June 16, 2005, 01:55:54 PM »

I agree with Marc's summary on fescue, although he should have said that fescue is relatively free of SERIOUS disease. The susceptibility of bent to take all patch, or poa to fusarium is more problematic to greenkeepers than the coming and going of red thread on a fescue sward.

Eric suggested that bent would have made his job easier at Bandon, this is probably because he has fungicides available to him, and a generous budget to manage bent.

Fescue has been used on greens as a mono sward or mixed with bent for many decades in the UK, with satisfying results.
Where is the problem?
The problem arises when fescue (cool season grass) is compared with creeping bent (warm season grass), the HOC and appearance is obviously different, presenting a problem for golfers used to slicker surfaces.

We followed the trend of mono swards of creeping bent in northern europe, and it does'nt work. Apparently, if I understand well, fescue does not work too well in many parts of the US.

Well, never mind, just revert back to what suits the climate and everyone's happy, but let's not write off fescue completely.

Eric Johnson

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Re:Fescue Greens
« Reply #58 on: June 16, 2005, 02:43:13 PM »

I agree with Marc's summary on fescue, although he should have said that fescue is relatively free of SERIOUS disease. The susceptibility of bent to take all patch, or poa to fusarium is more problematic to greenkeepers than the coming and going of red thread on a fescue sward.



Eric suggested that bent would have made his job easier at Bandon, this is probably because he has fungicides available to him, and a generous budget to manage bent.



Fescue has been used on greens as a mono sward or mixed with bent for many decades in the UK, with satisfying results.
Where is the problem?
The problem arises when fescue (cool season grass) is compared with creeping bent (warm season grass), the HOC and appearance is obviously different, presenting a problem for golfers used to slicker surfaces.

We followed the trend of mono swards of creeping bent in northern europe, and it does'nt work. Apparently, if I understand well, fescue does not work too well in many parts of the US.



I think one part of the process in selecting fescue as the desired grass is the commitment of reducing inputs to the golf course.  Which could mean there would be more tolerance (by owners, players, members, etc.) of the occassional disease.  Fescue will outperform other grasses in the right scenario (i.e., sand, climate, low-input sites, budget conscious clubs).  

That DOES NOT mean fescue is the best selection for all situations.  For example, if you want to mow greens at 0.065" don't bother planting fescue.    

I am not sure where or when I said creeping bentgrass would have made my job at Bandon easier.  Creeping bentgrass would not only be more difficult in terms of golf course inputs but, creeping bentgrass does not enjoy life on the southern Oregon coast.

Here are a couple of questions to all that have been following this thread:

Which turfgrass would you choose for your greens, creeping bentgrass or fescue?

*** I am deliberately omitting any variables to see if anyone has been paying attention to this thread.

Keeping this thread alive.....

Eric

Stuart Hallett

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Re:Fescue Greens
« Reply #59 on: June 16, 2005, 03:37:17 PM »
Eric,

I misquoted you, sorry !
You actually said that "if greens need to be maintained at 3mm, plant creeping bentgrass..", which is not the case at Bandon.

Can you tell us what grasses you would have preferred on greens at Bandon, or did you choose fescue ?

Doesn't it seem ironic that creeping bent "does not enjoy life on the southern Oregon coast", I thought that the majority of creeping bent cultivars are developed in Oregon ?
 

Eric Johnson

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Re:Fescue Greens
« Reply #60 on: June 16, 2005, 05:25:06 PM »
Eric,

I misquoted you, sorry !
You actually said that "if greens need to be maintained at 3mm, plant creeping bentgrass..", which is not the case at Bandon.

Can you tell us what grasses you would have preferred on greens at Bandon, or did you choose fescue ?

Doesn't it seem ironic that creeping bent "does not enjoy life on the southern Oregon coast", I thought that the majority of creeping bent cultivars are developed in Oregon ?
 

The grasses at Bandon Dunes Resort (fescue-Col. bent) were selected after rigorous research conducted prior to construction of Bandon Dunes.  Given our conditions, I cannot think of better grass selections.

The majority of grass seed fields are in the Willamette Valley and some east of the Cascades.  There used to be bentgrass seed grown in Coos County, although I'm not sure exactly where.  

Craig Sweet

  • Total Karma: -2
Re:Fescue Greens
« Reply #61 on: June 16, 2005, 06:45:45 PM »
This is just my opinion from nearly 20 years in the horticulture business, but I think fescue, and by this I mean fescue grass for greens, has a much larger "range" than people are giving it credit.

Soil modification is NOT that difficult, and the grass is certainly quite adaptable from down right cold climates to moderately mild climates. Here in Montana fescue is native. Not bent. Which grass do you think would be better suited based on that? Well, you say, you're not mowing your fescue at putting green heights. That is true...and...why not?  I will put forward the argument that the golf industry has "sold" the idea that bent is the best, and in most cases the ONLY, cool season grass for putting greens. Certainly that is where they put thier TIME and MONEY for research. That's a BIG mistake if you ask me.

That old Green Section article I found belittled the use of fescues. It slammed the UK greenkeepers and all but called them ignorant fools for proclaiming their greens to contain any fescue at all. It reeked of USGA bias. And I think the industry STILL does.

Just my opinion, but I think MOST of the people that post here would LOVE to putt on greens that were 70-80% fescue and rolling at a nice 9.5-10....

James Bennett

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Re:Fescue Greens
« Reply #62 on: June 16, 2005, 08:04:20 PM »
Further to my post #46 and Marc Haring's excellent response at #47, I make the following comments to illustrate the thoughts of some from the 1920's.  It helps in understanding the degree of use of fescue in greens at that time.

In the Spirit of St Andrews Chapter 5 (Greenkeeping), the good Doctor MacKenzie refered on page 179 to the works of Drs Piper and Oakley to put greenkeeping on a scientific basis in their book 'Turf for Golf Courses'.  The Doctor distinguished golf grass as that 'with a thick matted root growth and a dwarf leaf - grasses which require little mowing and provide a springy carpet that is a pleasure to walk on'  (sounds like fescue) whilst from an agricultural point of view 'the most desirable grasses have a small root growth and a large succulent leaf'.  Apparently, the latter (which sounds a bit like 'green golf courses' as well as farms) prefer alkaline soils, whereas the golfing turf is better suited by acidicn soils, which the Doctor recognises (on page 180) as discouraging worms (see Marc Haring's post #47).

On page 199, the good Doctor goes on that 'Chewings and other fescues make beautiful greens, but I do not know of any fescue that will stand close mowing for more than a year or two.  On the other hand, fescues do much better on fairways where the mowing machines do not cut so closely, and on soil that is suitable to them they give more perfect fairways than any other grass.'  

I recall Jack Nicklaus in the early 1970's in his cartoon strip tips commenting that the best fairways to play golf from were fescues (at the time I wondered what the hell is fescue), closely followed by  freshly cut poa!

On page 18 of Golf Architecture vol 5, MacKenzie's 'Round the World on a Golf Tour' article of June 3 1927 is reproduced.  He comments that in Melbourne Australia, a new course at Victoria Golf Club (across the road from Royal Melbourne, and the host of many Australian Opens) has had the greens sown with Chewings fescue.  He says 'When I was there they had a beautifully, true putting surface free from weeds, but I have no doubt that they will have a similar experience to that of clubs in Britan and America, and that the fescues will die from constant mowing, with the result that it will be necessary to replace them with bent grasses.  Fescues, I may add, die from mowing because the growth is from the apex and not the base of the stem as in agrostic grasses'.  I think Marc Haring has clarified this last point (see #47).  Today, Victoria Golf Club has a mix of bent and poa as their greens surface.

The good Doctor continued this discussion in the next weeks article (page 19 of Golf Architecture volume 5), commenting that America had got it right by seeding (or vegetative method) agostis, and that much better results would be obtained in both Britain and Australia by adopting such methods.  He went on to say that Australia had made the mistake of sweetening their grasses with alkaline fertilisers, to the detriment of the finer golfing grasses.  'Sour acid soil not only encourages the growth of the finer golfing grasses, but is inimical to worms, plantains, daisies and similar weeds.  The Alwoodley greens are free from fescues and consist entirely of the finer bent (agrostis grasses).

On a local note, I recently saw a new green constructed in A1 bent with a close-cut chipping area comprising of a fescue and A1 mix.  It has only been down for 8 months, so it is too early to say how it will go during the winter and summer, but it currently looks and plays very well, although the ball scars in the approach to the green do not appear to recover quickly (an aesthetic issue only, playability is not compromised).  Sorry, can't remember the mix of fescues used in the surrounds.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2005, 08:08:49 PM by James Bennett »
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Don_Mahaffey

Re:Fescue Greens
« Reply #63 on: June 16, 2005, 08:31:32 PM »
Craig,
I think there is more to the issue of fescue greens then just whether they will survive or not.
First, good fescue greens will not be green. That, I believe will be a very hard sell to most golfers.
Second, good fescue greens are very firm. Golfers, for the most part, don't like hard greens. And, of course the design has to take the firmness of fescue into account. Fescue greens will not work for the vast majority of the golf courses I've seen simply from a design view. If the entire course is not designed with the ground game as the primary focus, I'm not sure fescue greens would be fun to play.
Third, how many supts. really know how to care for fescue and how many owners/members are will to accept points one and two? Making a commitment to fescue greens is making a commitment to a different type of golf. From a business angle that's just not going to work everywhere fescue may be able to survive.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Fescue Greens
« Reply #64 on: June 16, 2005, 08:44:28 PM »
Don Mahaffey,

Craig Sweet continues to try to force the square peg in the round hole.

If it was so easy to do, it would have been done.
But, it's not, so it's not. ;D

Craig Sweet

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Re:Fescue Greens
« Reply #65 on: June 16, 2005, 11:52:07 PM »
Don, I agree with everything you said. However, I think what you said, and I don't mean this as any disrespect for you, speaks volumes for what golf has become. Green grass, soft greens that will hold a shot and putt true, but are fast as hell, and better turf through the ever increasing application of chemicals.

Pat, my original question, which you seem incapable of grasping, was ***were there more fescue greens in America at one time and does anyone know where they were?***

I have said, I think the USGA, very early on, did an excellent job of convincing people that golf, as it was being played in the UK was inferior on several levels and turf was one of them.

Craig Sweet

  • Total Karma: -2
Re:Fescue Greens
« Reply #66 on: June 16, 2005, 11:57:59 PM »
James, that was an excellent post! Thanks.

Do you suppose there was a technological change in mowing equipment back around 1915-1920, that allowed lower mowing heights and thus put an end to fescue greens?

I'll have to dig out that James Arthur peice that timelined equipment changes and the effects on turf management.

James Bennett

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Re:Fescue Greens
« Reply #67 on: June 17, 2005, 02:10:01 AM »
Craig

I'm only 46, so I don't know what happened to mowing equipment around 1920.  I suspect there are some posters here who may remember this period. ;D

I personally love fescue as a grass for our roughs, and we are trying rye/fesue blends for surrounds and shaded tees.  The fescue seems to struggle with wear when mown at around 10mm on our shady tees.  I expect we are still getting this part right.  I have seen some fantastic pure fescue as approaches/surrounds and rough at Peninsula (North) in Melbourne.  However, I've also seen fairways in Adelaide that burn from buggy tyres and footmarks (we are a bit hotter and drier in summer than Melbourne).  So, in conjunction with our course supt, we are a bit careful how quickly we go with these grasses.

I wish I could comment on fescue greens - I've just never seen them.
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Marc Haring

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Re:Fescue Greens
« Reply #68 on: June 17, 2005, 05:09:20 AM »
On the subject of mowers it’s great talking to old guys like Jack Macmillan and Walter Woods both of whom used to cut greens with the old Certes push mower in the forties and fifties before the advent of the Auto Certes and the Ransomes Overgreen.

Of course in those days especially when there was only two or three greenkeepers on each course, the last thing you wanted was grass to cut. So they’d set the mowers at about ¼ inch and never ever feed them.

Perfect for fescue.  

Stuart Hallett

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Re:Fescue Greens
« Reply #69 on: June 17, 2005, 05:59:35 AM »
Marc

We still have 5 Certes mowers from the 1920's-30's, in perfect working order. They cut like a dream, even at 3mm, although it must be said that they beat a Fly-mo hands down for physical exercise.

RJ_Daley

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Re:Fescue Greens
« Reply #70 on: June 17, 2005, 08:38:28 AM »
For those that want to know the cultivars of fescue at Wild Horse, they were originally seeded in Jamestown and Tiffany.  I don't know if he has overseeded anything different in recent years.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Craig Sweet

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Re:Fescue Greens
« Reply #71 on: June 17, 2005, 10:21:25 AM »
When the very first courses were being built on Long Island, the Boston area, etc. did the architects consider a fescue/bent mix for the greens?

Eric Johnson

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Re:Fescue Greens
« Reply #72 on: June 17, 2005, 11:12:44 AM »
Don Mahaffey,

Craig Sweet continues to try to force the square peg in the round hole.

If it was so easy to do, it would have been done.
But, it's not, so it's not. ;D

Pat,
Is the square peg-round hole concept applicable to planting bentgrass where it will ultimately be a small component of the population of greens?  

Shouldn't everyone in cool-season grass zones be planting Poa annua being that is what the greens will be sooner or later?

Are you saying fescue is the wrong selection in all cases?  

Obviously, if anyone is seriously considering planting or converting to fescue, on-site research is warranted.  After all, that is why most golf courses have turf nurseries and/or demonstration plots.

Craig Sweet

  • Total Karma: -2
Re:Fescue Greens
« Reply #73 on: June 17, 2005, 12:07:28 PM »
Eric, I think there is such a bias in the industry toward green for the sake of green, and bent is the prefered grass for green, that all sorts of chemicals and excuses are used so as NOT to consider other options.

I agree with you, at times it seems the only solution is to manage for Poa and let it go at that.

I don't know, but I would bet there is a tiny fraction of the money being spent on research into better fescues when compared to monies spent on new improved bent grass.

Eric Johnson

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Re:Fescue Greens
« Reply #74 on: June 17, 2005, 01:11:30 PM »
Eric, I think there is such a bias in the industry toward green for the sake of green, and bent is the prefered grass for green, that all sorts of chemicals and excuses are used so as NOT to consider other options.

I agree with you, at times it seems the only solution is to manage for Poa and let it go at that.

I don't know, but I would bet there is a tiny fraction of the money being spent on research into better fescues when compared to monies spent on new improved bent grass.



I would bet there is even less than a tiny fraction of money for fine fescue research in the United States.  I understand the rationale:

Q: How many courses utilize fine fescue?
A: very few (if that many)  

Q: How many in maintained areas (i.e., greens, tees and fairways)?
A: less than very few  

Craig,
Are you considering fescue for a project?  Just wondering.