[Craig Sweet]

Steve, greens with a fescue/bent mix are fairly common in Europe. The BIGGA article said they know of 70 such courses in Denmark that are now fescue/bent. The Old Corse at St. Andrews is a fescue/bent. Are you saying that those greens are not the kind of surface golfers expect today?

I posted the link to fescue.com because it had a map of where fesuces will grow. I realize it deals primarily with lawns.

However, some cultivars of chewings and creeping fescue can be mowed to 5 mm or lower..that would be in the range of .129 t0 .120...a not uncommon mowing height in the USA for bent.

[Eric Johnson]

Steve,

However, some cultivars of chewings and creeping fescue can be mowed to 5 mm or lower..that would be in the range of .129 t0 .120...a not uncommon mowing height in the USA for bent.

Craig,
I have a hard time believing fescue can be maintained at those heights.  Maybe for a couple of days.  I think fescue is on the edge of sustainability at 5mm, at least in our climate (which is one of the better climates for fescue in the US).  Also, if we mowed our greens below 5mm, we would have real issues with losing hole locations on the greens.

FYI to others:
0.200"= 5mm
0.125"= 3.17mm

I think this whole fescue thing needs to be kept in perspective.  Ideally one plants fescue to reduce inputs (i.e., fertilizer, chemicals, water, etc.) to the golf course.  Now if one were to attempt maintaining fescue at 3mm or even 4mm, wouldn't that be defeating the purpose of planting fescue in the first place?  If greens need to be maintained at 3mm, plant creeping bentgrass....

Just another opinion.

 

[Dan_Lucas]

Fescue did fine in the old days because it didn't get watered much. It will out-compete most any grass under drought conditions, but the quality of the surface will be nowhere near what is expected today in America. The Denmark courses are going back to fescue because most pesticide use has been banned there so their poa greens are getting smoked. If you keep the water off of it and don't spray it, poa has a tough time making inroads on your stand. Once you start watering fescue it becomes much more site specific.

If we didn't have golf carts here at Kingsley, we could keep the fairways burnt and have a much easier time fighting off the poa, but when they are that dry, every cart track shows for two weeks.

I think Troy told me that they mow their fescue greens at Bandon somewhere between .200 and .250" and they roll around 9 most of the time. Here we mow our bent between .125" to .135" and they roll 9.5-10.5 most of the time.

[Eric Johnson]

I think Troy told me that they mow their fescue greens at Bandon somewhere between .200 and .250" and they roll around 9 most of the time. Here we mow our bent between .125" to .135" and they roll 9.5-10.5 most of the time.

Dan,
Both BD and PD are currently mowed at 0.230".  Usually, we roll 9-ish but, with the recent rain we are a little slower.

Eric Johnson
Superintendent
Bandon Dunes

[Joe Hancock]

I hope people are paying attention here. A couple of this country's premiere grass growers (and killers, in Dan's case when poa is involved) are posting legitimate information concerning agronomics, playability, adaptability and so on.

Keep it up fella's....and Thanks!

Joe

[Steve Okula]

Steve, greens with a fescue/bent mix are fairly common in Europe. The BIGGA article said they know of 70 such courses in Denmark that are now fescue/bent. The Old Corse at St. Andrews is a fescue/bent. Are you saying that those greens are not the kind of surface golfers expect today?

Craig,

I have been working in Europe for the past 14 years.

As was stated on other posts, Denmark is a special case because the little green men have completely banned any sort of fungicide for golf course use, making Poa untenable.

In point of fact, no, the Old Course greens would not be accepted by my membership here on a parkland course in the suburbs of Paris. To satisfy them, I need to mow at 3mm right through the winter, the greens only close in the case of a hard frost or when there is one of the rare covers of snow.

When I was at the Old Course in January '04, they were mowing at 5mm, but the leave blades were lying down under the bedknives and reaching 15-2O mm long. On a Scottish links course, that's fine, I respect it, and I would do the same, but it doesn't travel well.

[Patrick_Mucci]

What do you think bent does in hot weather?

Bent does fairly well, just not in the deep south.[/color]

Here's a site with a map of fescues' range.

For lawns and non-putting surface useage.[/color]

I believe chewings fescue is the prefered fescue for greens.

http://www.fescue.com/adaptation/


Craig,

Did you bother to read the article ?

How can you equate lawns with putting greens ?
[/color]

[Craig Sweet]

Pat, have your read ANY of the BIGGA articles regarding fescue greens?

[Craig Sweet]

Eric, sorry, my conversions from 4.5mm and 5mm were off....

I read where they mow TOC at 5mm most of the time, but sometimes a tad lower in the "heat" of summer and a tad higher in winter.

What sort of range to you mow at Bandon? (please don't use metric! )

[Craig Sweet]

Getting back to my original post...I was asking if anyone knew of any courses that might have had fescue greens...I was thinking maybe back in the early 1900's...I know Olympia Fields had fescue greens up until 1930ish...were there any others?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat, have your read ANY of the BIGGA articles regarding fescue greens?

Yes, they deal with the grass in DENMARK and THE UK.

YOUR QUESTION was about Fescue in the U.S.

How on earth do you equate climate and agronomic conditions in Denmark and the UK to the US ?

You're trying to force a square peg in a round hole.[/color]

[Craig Sweet]

Pat, if you don't want to have this discusion, then stop posting.

The question I asked is simple, back at the turn of the century there was at least two courses in the USA with fescue/bent mix greens.(Olympia Fields and Wilshire) Where there any others?

[Eric Johnson]

Eric, sorry, my conversions from 4.5mm and 5mm were off....

I read where they mow TOC at 5mm most of the time, but sometimes a tad lower in the "heat" of summer and a tad higher in winter.

What sort of range to you mow at Bandon? (please don't use metric! )

Craig,

Our HOC ranges from 0.200" (summer) to 0.240" (winter).  For our metric brethren 5mm to 6mm.....

[Tom_Doak]

Craig:

Pure fescue greens are generally a myth, but the best greenkeepers in the UK managed their grass to favor the fescue in a bent/fescue/poa melange.

The day I got to St. Andrews in 1982, I went for a tour of the Old Course with Walter Woods.  We looked at a green and I noted the mix of different grasses and asked how that was accepted (my question implying that in the US, the mottled look would not be so acceptable).  And he said, "A good player will see the difference in the grasses, and allow for it."  !!

But he did show me how he would take the best fescue on the greens and transplant them (with plugs) toward the hole locations they used for major championships, so that the area around the holes would be pure fescue to the extent possible.  He was 100% convinced that the fescue was the best-rolling grass of the three.

Fescue does have its enemies ... it always amazes me how you can find people in this industry who will run across the street in heavy traffic to tell you that fescue just won't work and we are crazy to even be talking about it.  But, the turf industry is a bit like the golf equipment industry:  there are tens of millions of dollars being spend to make things "greener" and more manicured, and there are a lot of people who don't like the idea of rolling things back to lower-cost, lower-input alternatives.

[Craig Sweet]

Tom, it seems to me that there are possibilities for fescue/bent mix greens in the USA. It would seem to be a good choice for a muni with a limited budget, or a development that was looking to save some dollars.  

I realize it isn't right for all situations, but I do think the use of fescue for greens is way over looked.

I was just emailing with a greenkeeper in the UK...his greens are a fescue/bent mix,( mostly fescue) and he is limited to 4000 gal, of water each night for his 18 greens. We on the other hand, here in arid Montana are pouring 650,000 gal. every night (when we irrigate) on 146 acres of golf course. His over all maintainace budget is a fraction of ours.

[Don_Mahaffey]

IMO,
It takes a pretty special project for fescue to be used on greens in the US. Not only does the climate have to be right, but the design, marketing, maintenance, and hiring all have to be spot on. Bandon sells it just right as you know what your in for from the marketing to the drive in, to the walk to the first tee. Fescue greens are part of an overall property theme and there doesn't seem to be many developers who could get it right.

[Marc Haring]

Interesting what Tom was saying about Walter Woods and his greens at TOC. There are one or two that are moving to fescue only greens in the UK following the Denmark lead but the absolute fundamental key to success is overseeding on a big scale and I think this is where old Walter differed. He managed the greens to favour fescue but in order to compete with the poa, you’ve got to overseed very regularly, maybe several times a year. That way you can beat poa at its own game.

Remember Kingsbarn present pure fescue greens and they are on the European Tour rota for the links challenge. The story is they had to raise their HOC to 7.0mm (0.28 inch) for the event so as to match the ball roll up with the other two courses.    

[Brian Walshe]

It's probably as far from North America as you can get but Barnbougle Dunes in Tasmania has a fescue/bent mix on the greens.  There are a couple of pretty wild greens where a pure bent surface would make the green close to unplayable but the fescue tends to take a bit off the ball on slopes.  After you get used to the different look they are just terrific to putt on.  If it works at Barnbougle I can't see why it wouldn't work in some of the cooler locations in the US.

[Tom_Doak]

We did use the fescue/bent surface in Tasmania (from tee thru green) and thought they were fine there.

My general rules for considering fescue on greens are as follows:

1.  You've got to have a fairly mild climate.

2.  You've got to have very sandy soils -- I would never consider using fescue on the greens unless you were also going to use it on the fairways, and they need to be sandy.

3.  Because the surface is different, and a bit slower under most conditions, I would only use it in a place where there are not a lot of other courses around with bent greens.  

If they are being compared side by side, most people are going to prefer bentgrass and ignore the advantages of the fescue ... and they're going to ask why the greens aren't bent, until they are changed.  This is why it did not work at Spanish Bay, why it didn't work at High Pointe, and why the fescue fairways were doomed from the start at Whistling Straits.  On the other hand, everything in Bandon is fescue and everyone accepts it there; Sand Hills is out there by itself; and there aren't any other courses around Barnbougle to compare it to.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Tom D.,

For whatever it's worth, I understand the fairways at Sand Hills have been converted to bluegrass. The climate there proved too harsh for the fescue. And, Sand Hills gets more cart traffic than most people might expect, which put additional stress on the fescue surfaces.

[Craig Sweet]

Back at the turn of the last century, when golf was still rather new in the USA, did golf course builders coming from the UK bring with them any desire to emulate some of the fescue greens they might have worked with in the UK?

[James Bennett]

TE Paul, Craig Sweet

I have been away for a few days, so missed the initial discussion.

I recall reading from Dr MacKenzie in his greenkeeping chapter in the Spirit of St Andrews, and more recently in his monthly articles from the World Tour, as recovered by Neil Crafter and published in the Golf Architecture magazine (issue no 5 or no 6 I think).

Dr MacKenzie has a way with words.  However, he strongly supported the line that acidic soils were best for golf turf (eg the bents and fescues) and that their natural occurence on the links was a blessing.  At his beloved Alwoodley, the fairways needed to be cut about three times a year!  He regarded greenkeeping as the opposite of farming (the farmer wants to grow, the greenkeeper wants to prevent growth).  Apparently (according to the Good Doctor), the acid soils also discourage worms!

He also had a strong preference for agrostis (bent) for greens, as opposed to fescue.  In his view (from the 1920's), the fescue was a plant that grows from the top of the leaf, not from the bottom of the leaf (I don't know whether this is right or not).  As a result, any close mowing of fescue required by greens would result (in the good Doctor's opinion)in the loss of the putting surface.

I'll check the appropriate pages numbers and articles tonight, and repost tomorrow.

[Marc Haring]

In this instance the good doctor made the correct observation but the wrong diagnosis. All grasses grow from the base of the leaf, the crown as it is called. If the crown is quite high and is removed during mowing, the grass will die. However fescue like many grasses will die as a result of close mowing just because the remaining leaf material is insufficient to provide it with enough energy to sustain itself, especially when there is competition from other more aggressive grasses such as bent (agrostis).
In fact there are very few grasses that will withstand close mowing (< 7mm) and these are the ones found on golf greens. Go into the rough on a typical golf course and you will find maybe 20 or so additional species.

He was also correct in his observations about acid soils being the best for fine grass production but it is not the acidity that helps in this regard but the fact that the acid locks up available nutrients in the soil. It is the lack of available nutrients that favour these grasses at the expense faster growing varieties. Links courses for instance are generally quite alkaline but contain little in the way of nutrients.  
It's the same for earthworms. The locked up calcium in this instance makes it impossible for the earthworms to build up enough strength in their skeletal system.

[Joe Perches]

We on the other hand, here in arid Montana are pouring 650,000 gal. every night (when we irrigate) on 146 acres of golf course. His over all maintainace budget is a fraction of ours.

Wow. 2 acre-feet a day.
Do you irrigate something like 120 days a year?

How much does an acre-foot of water cost in Montana?

[Steve Okula]

It's the same for earthworms. The locked up calcium in this instance makes it impossible for the earthworms to build up enough strength in their skeletal system.

Earthworms have skeletons?

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