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Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Fescue Greens
« on: June 07, 2005, 07:12:35 AM »
I was getting curious about the use of fescue for greens and found  some interesting information.

The link to BIGGA and their reports on fescue greens in Denmark

http://www.bigga.org.uk/greenkeeper/viewstory.php?id=632

Good reading...I also found an old USGA Green Section article (1929!) condeming fescue as a grass for greens. This old article claimed that it was total BS that the greens in the UK were fescue...the article said even the greens at TOC were bent and NOT fescue...in fact the writer of the article said he was visiting a course in the UK and the greenkeeper was very proud of his fescue greens and wanted to show them off, the only trouble was, the writer claimed, they weren't fescue, they were bent!

Now, this was 1929...the article smacked of USGA bias...

Last night I was reading about the original greens at Olympia Fields...they were fescue...sometime around 1930 they were re-sodded with bent.

My question is, are there any fescue greens remaining in the USA? Was there a push by the USGA back in the late 20's and 30's to have fescue greens removed and replaced by bent? If so why?
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

TEPaul

Re:Fescue Greens
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2005, 07:31:10 AM »
Craig:

I have a most interesting series of articles by an Englishman who essentially claims that modern agronomic theory and practices has basically ruined much of the old turf of the old courses of Europe that were on naturally super acidic soil. He seems to claim that the tendency to lyme golf soil too much and sweeten it has caused too many grasses to compete with those two old pre-architecture natural linksland grasses---agrostis (bent) and festuca (fescue) that basically had no natural competition because they happened to be the only two types of grass that could survive in such acidity! They also happened to be great surfaces to play golf off of.

Not just that but the fact that those two grasses were all that could naturally grow in such super acidic soil was one of the primary reasons golf existed in the first place in the linksland. The reason being those narrow swaths of what became linksland courses were so acidic that crops could not grow there either and consequently golf didn't have to try to compete with farming. If it had golf may never have existed at all!  ;)

It would not surprise me at all if some of our agronomists on here will deny this in one way or another but if so I'm becoming less and less willing to believe them. It seems to me that the agronomics of the golf industry has become in the last 100 years a weird hybrid science that is constantly evolving or devolving away from natual tendencies or even a form of natural agronomic Darwinianism. Obviously the constant push towards immaculateness in agronomics in golf may be the driving force behind all this. But more and more these agronomic specialists seem to be like emergency room doctors. The want the "emergency room", they need the "emergency room"! The "emergency room" of modern golf agronomics has become a VERY big business!!   ;)
« Last Edit: June 07, 2005, 07:39:32 AM by TEPaul »

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Fescue Greens
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2005, 07:39:56 AM »
Tpaul...that old USGA Green Section article said these guys in the UK were nuts...they claimed their greens were fescue, but they were actually bent...the writer said he didn't have the heart to tell him otherwise.

My sense is, and this is something you might know, did the USGA go around in the early years and tell supt's that fescue was bad and bent was good? Was there a diliberate effort to push bent grass?
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Mark_Guiniven

Re:Fescue Greens
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2005, 07:43:07 AM »

TEPaul

Re:Fescue Greens
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2005, 07:49:15 AM »
Face it, even the weird hybrid agonomic science of our own residential lawns and such has become a VERY big business of the type of constant remediation of an agronomic emergency room!  ;)

We live in a strange world this way where even our cats apparently need jackets and booties and our dogs need to see psychiatrists. And all of them apparently need special diets and pills and tranquilizers and such.

None of this really needs to be and if one looks carefully at history it tells us so loud and clear! But admitting such things has become problematic today as everyone needs to make a buck and P.T. Barnum was right----"a sucker is born every minute!"  ;)

Mark_Guiniven

Re:Fescue Greens
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2005, 07:51:46 AM »
TEPaul,
I remember you getting into that with Dave Wilber. What was the author's name?

TEPaul

Re:Fescue Greens
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2005, 08:20:50 AM »
"TEPaul,
I remember you getting into that with Dave Wilber. What was the authors name?"

MarkG:

You have an excellent, excellent memory to remember something like that. I believe the author's name was something like Parke but I'll have to look in my files. Ron Prichard gave me the articles and as I recall Dave Wilbur was familiar with the articles.

I'm not completely serious about this entire subject, though. However, if a Dave Wilbur (who I know and who is an excellent agronomist) says that the premise of those articles is entirely wrong, I may have a problem with that.

On the other hand, Dave Wilbur lives and works in today's world of golf not the world of golf of 150 years ago. I certainly admit that expectations regarding golf's agronomies has probably changed about 900% in that time. I have a feeling that 99% of today's golfers and probably the vast majority on this website, even including the most ardent purists, have no real idea what the playing surfaces of golf were really like way back then and what it was like to play on them.

Things like consistency of playing surface has been a goal one way or another in golf agronomics for probably 200 years and it doesn't seem to be slowing down.

I could say something smart and cute and purist such as the old saw "consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" but I don't really believe that about golf's agronomy or golf, at least not totally. I'm no enemy of randomness and luck in golf but I don't believe I'd enjoy playing on the types of surfaces and the type of agronomy they had in golf 150 and 100 years ago on a regular basis. It would be interesting to experience, for sure, but a steady diet of it today with all that we know and can do that way would not be particularly acceptable to me on a regular basis.

And I believe that even if our most ardent purist on here may say he'd prefer to play in the type of agronomic environment that existed 150 and 100 years ago that he is not being genuinely honest if and when he says something like that.

 

Eric Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Fescue Greens
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2005, 08:35:15 AM »
Craig,

To my knowledge, the only fine fescue-colonial bentgrass greens in the US are at Bandon Dunes, Pacific Dunes and Bandon Trails.  The fescue is the dominant grass with colonial bentgrass being a small constituent in the population.
 

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Fescue Greens
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2005, 08:44:19 AM »
Here is what little I know, but is at the heart of the matter.  I always have to come back to Wild Horse.  There, there are fescue surrounds of bent greens.  They are as firm and fast of putting surfaces as you will find on a day in and day out basis.  The fescue is subject to high heat and some humidity in the summer, causing the super to constantly battle disease and other species encroachment.  While he is keeping the surrounds noticeably fescue predominant, he can't hold the line forever, it seems.  By the same token, Sand Hills had all fescue or some rye blended into fairways.  It had the heck kicked out of it each year.  I know the color isn't the goal here.  But, the turf conditions were dicey, and they have been letting it convert over other species, I think.

No one is able to keep ideal fescue that I know of.  They say Dan Lucas at Kingsley is one of the foremost fescue men in the country.  I don't know how his stand is evolving.  It would be nice if he saw this and commented.  Whistling Straits has a fescue rye blend.  And, they also have issues to maintain a balance.

Rustic Canyon has the perfect maintenance meld surrounds for fescue, like Wild Horse.  But, climate is not conducive to it.

If a place like Wild Horse can have excellent success with bent greens and fescue surrounds to achieve all the qualities of firm and fast greens with puttable surrounds, and bent is arguably a better species in shoot density and mowability, why is everyone so focused on fescue?  Fescue has far more maintenance difficulties in disease susceptability, yet uses less fertility and water.  Is it a question of legend and lore rather than good turf management science?

PS: I was typing while TEP was writing, and now seeing it, I agree with him.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2005, 08:46:29 AM by RJ_Daley »
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Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Fescue Greens
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2005, 12:30:32 PM »
High Pointe was originally seeded to fescue on greens, but later converted after agronomic and acceptance issues.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Fescue Greens
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2005, 01:25:29 PM »
Craig -

You might want to check out a website maintained by the R&A for information:

www.bestcourseforgolf.com

You may find some helpful information there.

DT

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Fescue Greens
« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2005, 05:05:36 PM »
Dave...yes, I've seen that site..very good.
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Fescue Greens
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2005, 05:36:28 PM »
Mark, the issue was Febuary 1926 and I believe the other issue I saw was August 1929.

http://turf.lib.msu.edu/1920s/1926/260247B.pdf
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Paul_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Fescue Greens
« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2005, 06:35:20 AM »
TEP: I think you're right about Parke being the guy. I seem to recall a book by Park (no "e") who dealt with those very issues.  

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Fescue Greens
« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2005, 07:03:31 AM »
RJ...I think some of those courses you mentioned have fescue fairways and rough, but not fescue greens.

It seems to me that there are very few fescue/bent mix greens left in the USA. This surprises me.
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Fescue Greens
« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2005, 10:04:33 AM »

It seems to me that there are very few fescue/bent mix greens left in the USA. This surprises me.

How many were there to start out with ?

I suspect VERY few.

And, if that's the case, why would you expect there to be greater numbers of them in existance ?
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Dan_Lucas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Fescue Greens
« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2005, 05:34:38 PM »
Fescue is a very climate specific grass. You must have well drained soils and lots of air movement. It loses what competitive edge it has when temperatures get above 75-80 degrees for extended periods (longer than a week or two) with high humidity.

That is why it is great on the seaside links of Europe and why it only works in very specific areas in the States.

We lose ground to Poa when we have wet springs such as this year. Then gain it back when it dries out.

I played High Pointe's greens when they were new, pure fescue. They were very nice, but the ball roll was not as true as you get with good bent. I don't think they would have worked there long-term even if they hadn't been overseeded. Cut that short (1/4") it also loses some competitive edge and poa here is so tough to keep out, I think they would have been pure poa in 10 years anyway.  

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Fescue Greens
« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2005, 06:01:15 PM »
Pat, that is what I am trying to determine. How many of our early courses had fescue greens? I think more than a few. It would also appear to be making a "comeback" in Europe.

Fescue would probably work just fine anywhere bent will grow.
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Fescue Greens
« Reply #18 on: June 08, 2005, 10:15:18 PM »
Craig Sweet,

The climate in Europe and especially in the UK is vastly different than that found in the U.S.

If one believes that early golf in America followed the centers of wealth , I can't see Fescue as the grass of choice in any of them.

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Fescue Greens
« Reply #19 on: June 08, 2005, 11:32:42 PM »
Like I said, Olympia Fields original greens were fescue. I am sure there were others. Fescue has a fairly wide range.
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Fescue Greens
« Reply #20 on: June 09, 2005, 01:05:06 PM »
Craig Sweet,

If it can't stand temperatures of 75-80 for more than a week or two, with high humidity, where would that wide range you allude to, be located ?
« Last Edit: June 09, 2005, 01:06:00 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Fescue Greens
« Reply #21 on: June 09, 2005, 10:48:46 PM »
What do you think bent does in hot weather?

Here's a site with a map of fescues' range.

I believe chewings fescue is the prefered fescue for greens.

http://www.fescue.com/adaptation/
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Fescue Greens
« Reply #22 on: June 09, 2005, 11:02:59 PM »
Here's a 1921 Green Section report on New Zealand fescue being used in Southern California with good results.
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Fescue Greens
« Reply #23 on: June 09, 2005, 11:03:30 PM »
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Steve Okula

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Fescue Greens
« Reply #24 on: June 10, 2005, 06:16:56 AM »
Craig,

I read your links. I don't see how they support the idea that a fescue green would ever be superior to bentgrass in North America.

The Fescue link talks about home lawns, not putting greens. Tall fescue, for example, may be adaptable across most of the U.S. in certain applications, but nobody will ever use it for greens.

Likewise, the report from 1921, talks about using Kentucky bluegrass to sow putting green surfaces, along with fescues. That is not to say that fescue ever gave near the kind of surface that golfers expect today.

The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

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