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PAW13

White Manor CC (Malvern, PA)
« on: May 31, 2005, 10:53:46 PM »
Played in the Pennsylvania State Better-Ball of Partners today at the newly renovated White Manor CC (round 2 is Wednesday).  I believe the course has been open about a year now, but it was my first trip since the work was done.

Have to give Bobby Weed the thumbs up.  Really enjoyed the golf course.  Having only played the course once or twice before the work, I belive he kept the routing pretty much the same, but did a great job changing the shapes of the holes.  Best change may be the 2nd hole before a double dogleg par 5, now a dogleg right par 4 of about 420 or so from the back tee.

Having only played one other Bobby Weed course (Glen Mills) I like how he gives you a couple of short par 4's that you can take a rip at the green (# 7 & # 15 at WM), but you better hit it perfect or you will have a very difficult second shot from 40 yards or closer.  He also allows for you go after the Par 5's but once again you better hit a quality golf shot or you will pay for it.  The 17th at WM is a great risk reward hole, with water guarding the front left of the green from 120 or so in and you can have 240 to 190 left based on the wind conditions.

I saw Tom Paul all day today so I know he knows how I feel.

wsmorrison

Re:White Manor CC (Malvern, PA)
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2005, 06:54:06 AM »
Chet, he probably feels good he didn't saddle you with being his parner  ;)

I only played the Gordon version of White Manor one time and the Weed version once as well.  My memory is a bit dim on details, but my overall sense was the course was vastly improved from a stylistic and more importantly from a playability standpoint.  

The bunkering and new greens were very interesting departures from the bland Gordon work.  I was talking to Tom Paul last night and he mentioned that there is a lot more strategy on the ground and it is very appealing to look at too.  There's just the right amount of quirk, in a good sense.   I thought the 2nd green was quirky although Tom thought there were better examples.

At the start I don't think Bobby Weed (nice to have two of his courses in the district) was going to redo the whole course but it worked out that way.  The club was having financial difficulties and membership woes.  I guess they came around to thinking they have to spend money to make money and I hope it works out for them because they have a gem of a course!  

Isn't Jason Mandel going to write something about the work?

TEPaul

Re:White Manor CC (Malvern, PA)
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2005, 07:07:53 AM »
I live a mile from this course but had not seen the Bobby Weed chances until yesterday. Officiating is a great way to see how a course plays---you get to see all kinds of things happen in two days. There's no question B. Weed rolled a ton and a a half of strategy into this old William Gordon course that was a pretty hard one in play but a pretty straight forward old 1963 course. A few of the new greens have so much slope and contour in them it looks like a few are a bit hard to mow--like #13. But you have to look at a course like this pretty carefully as you can hit what seems to be a good shot but slightly in the wrong place and you have to really use your imagination, your sense and skill to recover successfully. Right now I'm going over there early and get right behind maintenance with my putter and putt all over those greens before the field starts at 8am.

Jason Mandel

Re:White Manor CC (Malvern, PA)
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2005, 11:40:59 AM »
Chet,

I am glad you enjoyed the course.  It is always interesting to hear what some of the better players in the area think of the course.  As you can probably attest to, the course is very much different than any course in the Philadelphia area, with the greens, some of the in your face strategy and even the fescue.

The work that Bobby and Scot Sherman has done has been very well accepted by the members and guests, as well as the many we have coming over for reciprocity.  It is a course that changes day to day due to the wind(thanks the the cutting down of over 1000 trees!), does not feel like it beats you up either, yet when you look at the score card at the end of the day you wonder where you lost the strokes.

Tom,
I hope you hit a lot of putt's on that 13th green, it sure is a fun green.  I was standing out there just after we opened with Jim Urbina, and he told me that 13th green is exactly like one of the greens at White Bear Yacht Club.  


I'd be happy to answer any questions anyone might have about the work.  I think its hard for anyone to truely appreciate the finished product if they didn't see what was there before.

Credit should go to both Bobby Weed and Scot Sherman, as well as our excellent super Don Brown, who did an incredible job both with the grow in and the day to day maintenance of the course.

Jason
« Last Edit: June 02, 2005, 10:31:33 PM by Jason Mandel »
You learn more about a man on a golf course than anywhere else

contact info: jasonymandel@gmail.com

Kirk Gill

Re:White Manor CC (Malvern, PA)
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2005, 11:57:29 AM »
Question.

In 30 years are there going to be threads about the "desecration" of a Gordon "classic?"

How does a club know whether or not to change what the original architect intended and created? Are clubs that rework 60's layouts doing anything different than those clubs who "improved" golden age stuff over the years, for whatever reason? Is it just that obvious that the older courses were so much better that changing them at all amounts to desecration, while later layouts actually require improvement?

Just asking...........
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

mike_malone

Re:White Manor CC (Malvern, PA)
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2005, 01:53:55 PM »
 Kirk,

  That is a good question. I wonder if a "gold" standard gets established , possibly in each area. For Philly it would be Merion. As courses vary from that standard they are considered "not worth restoring".

   Maybe some day that will change, but I doubt it.

     The original course may have been built with moderate expectations. It did not intend to be at a championship level.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2005, 01:56:33 PM by Mike_Malone »
AKA Mayday

wsmorrison

Re:White Manor CC (Malvern, PA)
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2005, 11:21:40 PM »
"The original course may have been built with moderate expectations. It did not intend to be at a championship level."

You're talking about Merion here, right?  What information do you have about the intention the members had for the course?  

They must have changed their minds pretty quickly as they held the US Amateur 4 years after it opened.  

The old Haverford course held the 1904 and 1909 Women's Amateur so the club was no stranger to national events.  

I'd like to know how you made this determination.  It seems to me they were looking for their own property in making the move from Haverford and the Haskell ball made their present course obsolete, but they were surely looking for a better course as well.  Given that Robert Lesley (Lesley Cup) was involved in the effort to find another course, his familiarity with championship golf in NY and MA would have been influencial in the intent.

Doug Braunsdorf

Re:White Manor CC (Malvern, PA)
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2005, 11:43:15 PM »
Wayne-

  From context, I understood Mike to be speaking of White Manor; more specifically, in response to Kirk Gill's question about 30 or so years from now, if the redesign of White Manor will be looked upon as a "desecration" of a Gordon course.  

The reference to Merion is, again, from my understanding, establishing the top course in the area as Merion.

  I don't quite understand how it ties in at the present time--especially about courses 'varying from a standard'--
but I did understand the last line "...the original course..." to be referring to the original (Gordon) design of White Manor; that it may have been designed to be a members' course, not necessarily a course to hold tournaments on.  But, I am not 100% certain, as I do not know of the original mandates of the club's board to the Gordons prior to designing and building the course.  
« Last Edit: June 01, 2005, 11:50:01 PM by Douglas Braunsdorf »
"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

TEPaul

Re:White Manor CC (Malvern, PA)
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2005, 08:53:11 AM »
I really don't think in 30 years anyone is going to be claiming that Bobby Weed's redesign of William Gordon's White Manor was some kind of architectural desecration. The reason being what Weed did made the course so much more interesting to play than it used to be. Gordon's White Manor was no simple course either, it was always on the hard side.

Some of the holes that Weed really changed like #4 are really good as is the short 15th. The new shorter #7 along side the par 5 17th may have a bit too much danger, particularly for a field like this week's Pa Better Ball championship. In my opinion, two greens need to be tweaked some---those two radical down-tiers on #13 (they really can't mow properly below them) and the back shelf on #9 (it's way too shallow for a hole like that). There's a lot of high fescue out there on that course too but that's a maintenance decision, not architectural.

But all in all Weed's redesign of White Manor is terrific, in my opinion---it's everything I'd been hearing.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2005, 08:54:53 AM by TEPaul »

wsmorrison

Re:White Manor CC (Malvern, PA)
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2005, 10:03:36 AM »
Doug,

Combine Mike Malone's inability to construct meaningful sentences, his only mentioning Merion in his post and my being up waaay past my normal bedtime and you'll why I thought he was talking about Merion.  

In any case, how does Mike know what a club's intent was?  Did he study their history or just gave a gut feel?  A bit more research needs to be done to divine intent.  Just like you can't look at an aerial photograph from 8,000 feet and decide what trees need to be removed  ;)

mike_malone

Re:White Manor CC (Malvern, PA)
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2005, 10:08:50 AM »
 Locust Valley and Buena require at least two counties for me.
AKA Mayday

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