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Don_Mahaffey

Jim Arthur
« on: May 28, 2005, 10:57:43 AM »
An excerpt from Jim Arthur's "Practical Greenkeeping" that was posted on the BIGGA website.

"At regular intervals, and I have succumbed myself, greenkeeping writers are tempted by offers to write on the milestones of greenkeeping history. There are enormous pitfalls in the path of those who blithely fall into the trap.

The first point that must be accepted is that very little of these epoch-making greenkeeping revolutions were specifically invented for the purpose of the better management of recreational turf.

The second is that these developments had often been in existence, though neglected, for years before being adopted. Thirdly until there was a demand, there was no market. Fourthly such revolutions were often adopted very slowly and by no means universally, not only because there was no universal need but because of inborn reluctance to change – when often the change meant poorer results until the methods or machines were refined to deal with their side effects on fine turf.

A classic example is that of the use of tile drains on golf courses. It has been said that until the introduction of powered trenching tools in the early 1900s the use of tile drains was not widespread. What nonsense!

Many, many thousands of acres of heavy clay land were drained in the post Napoleonic war period to enable home food production to be stepped up to meet the needs of an expanding population nearly two centuries ago.

The first cylindrical tile drain making machine was invented (by Switzer) in the UK in 1787, but demand was poor because then food production was just about adequate – despite the knock on effects of the industrial revolution and a mass migration from the land to factories in towns.

Then came the agricultural demand first met by hand made tiles (see Chapter 13 Practical Greenkeeping for full details) and then in response to the huge demand in 1845 by Scraggs machine.

Some of this very old drainage is still working, because it was laid very deep (one metre at least) laboriously by hand. There was no demand from golf because in 1857 there were only 17 golf courses – all of them naturally free draining Scottish sandy links. Even in 1888 there were only 138 in the U.K. – virtually all on heath or links.

However in the 1890s there was a vast explosion in golf to cope with the new demand from the big cities. Courses were constructed on often “unsuitable” heavy land where intensive drainage – and earthworm control – were essential to achieve tolerable playing conditions, even during the few summer months to which inland golf was restricted a century ago.

Remember Ber-’nard Darwin's comment in the 1930s that “golf was a game played by a few gentlemen and most Scotsmen” and that “no gentleman played golf before the first of May”. His words – not mine!

Tile drainage of golf courses took off because the need was there and remained dominant until plastic drains took over in the 1950s, (much more easily handled).

We have to accept that golf has never generated a big enough market to make specific research let alone production economically worthwhile. The only exception has perhaps been the mower.

Edwin Budding’s mower developed in 1832 from a reel type shearing machine designed to remove 'nap' from woolen woven tweeds was not widely adopted save by wealthy estate owners trying to mechanise the presentation of their expensively maintained 'lawns' surrounding their mansions, until the early 1900s.

This was largely because the finish left by these huge, heavy, clumsy early machines was far inferior to that provided by skilled greenkeepers with scythes.

Even I can remember such men scything wild white clover out of golf greens! It is worth remembring that the first hand Certes mower by Ransomes, specifically designed for use on golf greens was not introduced until 1924 and the first powered Auto-certes not until 1950! This was not because there was any criticism of design or finish – just that there was no money in golf.

Where there was money – in the States – and therefore a market, there followed great strides in the development of, for example, triplex mowers and trailed, then mounted, gang mowers for fairways.

Another 'agricultural' development slowly adopted by golf was the small tractor, with a power take off, which revolutionised small scale farming (because of manoeuvrability as well as low cost). Until Harry Ferguson's invention tractors were used as horses, trailing machinery.

As he told me himself, he modestly disclaimed the credit that was his due because he said that he was merely the first to realise the basic difference between a horse and a tractor, which was that “you can’t bolt anything to a horse's backside!” Now mounted equipment is standard, but it all started with that inventive Ulsterman.

Another development from another (agricultural) market which was enthusiastically adopted (for a change) by golf was that of selective weedkillers. These derived from war-time work in producing defoliating sprays to attack and destroy the enemies’ field crops.

Our first selective in 1946 was powder MCPA (on a lime base!!) and then a year later liquid 2:4D. What a joy advisory work was in those early post war days, explaining the miraculous eradication of the prevalent weeds of those days – starweed and daisies. The sceptical approach was soon replaced by joy.

Apart from a few pioneers – largely greenkeepers not research bodies – working e.g. on the application of such things as sodium chlorate (with very small safety margins), weed control was almost entirely by hand weeding.

I can still remember the sight of a line of a score or more of potato pickers in the East of Scotland advancing across a links green, ‘howking out’ starweed – and the resultant damage. Wise advisers did not exchange badinage with such redoubtable characters!

We now have virtually an effective selective weedkiller for every weed but despite the investigating work carried out by firms and STRI it was not research for which we have always had to rely on agriculture.

This applies today with pesticides where products are being withdrawn rather than being banned, simply because the market is too small to justifty the huge costs of EC registration and regulations.

There were a few areas where invaluable introductions were aimed at and funded by the sports turf market. One of these was the mechanisation of aeration produced in the middle of the worst economic depression of the last century by a small firm, Sisis, run with foresight and engineering skill by Wm. Hargreaves in the 1930s.

Prior to the Turfman (1934) aeration was by hand forking. Admittedly the motorised version the Auto turfman was not marketed until 1964.

Naturally, developments in aeration machinery were being made in America, but as so often happens conditions there are not relevant to our different climatic and soil conditions.

All their machines were too shallow penetrating. They were admittedly sophisticated. I asked Sisis engineers to develop a machine costing under £500(!) capable of penetrating 6" deep and of aerating a golf green in an hour.

This resulted in the Autocrat in 1971, which held sway until replaced by the de Ridders' Vertidrain (again my introduction) in 1980 – which could penetrate 15" and more, with a lifting action akin to the old raise forking with'graips which was the inspiration for this really deep aerator, now being used worldwide.

I have left the most important milestone until last, partly because it is the essence of sound management of fine turf and partly because it has undisputed worldwide application for the management of bents and fescues through all the temperate zones of the world.

This of course was the precept of Dr Murray, published in 1913, based on his work over the ten years earlier in the winter rainfall areas of South Africa, on turf dominated by bents (Agrostis).

His work has lasted unchallenged and proven over the century by countless research projects, here and in the States. In his own words his system has "the object of providing an adequate supply of nitrogen in an acid medium, with a very limited amount of phosphates and potash, the only source of the latter being such as is contained in the usual compost. The real object of the compost is not so much the provision of plant food as to supply humus". How perspicacious?

This work, started at the beginning of the last century, is the basis of all traditional austere greenkeeing designed to favour bents and fescues. Where his rules are ignored or reversed, Poa annua invades and dominates at once.

I know of few good greenkeepers who will openly assert that their ideal grass is this highly successful weed. Many erroneously say it is unavoidable.

There are hundreds if not thousand of examples proving the reverse. Dr Murray was certainly a man before his time and perhaps (certainly in my view) the most important milestone in the history of golf greenkeeping.

This in no way denigrates the sterling work of many links greenkeepers, even before him, who leamt by observation and from their ancestors, that the best way to look after their greens was to use soot (a nitrogenous fertiliser) and local sandy soil (with rotted seaweed) and deep spiking. Nothing new in greenkeeping – except in the minds of eccentrics and salesmen."

Were drains used under greens in the early 1900s or late 1800s?

The first greens mower wasn't produced until '24?

No P and K on bent greens?

More interesting reading:

http://www.bigga.org.uk/greenkeeper/viewstory.php?id=606


http://www.bigga.org.uk/greenkeeper/viewstory.php?id=632



« Last Edit: May 28, 2005, 11:56:04 AM by Don_Mahaffey »

Lynn_Shackelford

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Re:Jim Arthur
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2005, 01:36:46 PM »
Well written stuff.  But could you clarify that a bit about poa annua.  Did he mean more or less nitrogen, and/or more or less potash to keep poa annua from flourishing?
It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
               Tom Simpson

Peter Galea

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Re:Jim Arthur
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2005, 01:59:25 PM »
Probably adequate nitrogen to "sustain, and not yield."
Witholding phosphorus will reduce (but not eliminate) seeding of poa annua. Being able to seed, even when mowed to 1/10th inch gives poa a real competitive edge over bentgrass.
The low reccomendation of potassium would probably be rethought, especially with the levels of traffic common today. K is responsible for cell wall structure, wear tolerance, and disease resistance. Years ago when ony 30-40 golfers would play, maybe you could get away with it.
Cllimate, soils, management techniques, and type of use has to be factored into the equation.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2005, 05:49:34 PM by Pete Galea »
"chief sherpa"

Steve Okula

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Re:Jim Arthur
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2005, 05:31:49 PM »
I'd like to know more about this Dr. Murray in South Africa in 1913 and his greens.

How many rounds a year did they do? How fast and smooth were they? Were they mowing daily at .120 inch to maintain 10 ft. Stimps?

Did Dr. Murray ever need to make a living as a golf course superintendent? I know Arthur never did.

The excerpt Don quoted fits with everything else I ever read by Arthur - poetic, flowery, and completey irrelevant.

The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

Micah Woods

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Re:Jim Arthur
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2005, 08:50:48 PM »
The Dr. Murray that Arthur referred to is one Dr. Charles Molteno Murray, medical doctor, golf course architect (Clovelly Country Club, George Golf Club, Royal Cape Golf Club), and early agrostologist. Arthur’s quote of Murray with regard to fertilization was actually published in 1930 and it referred to experiments that Dr. Murray had conducted on bermudagrass turf at the Cape. In answer to Lynn’s question, he definitely meant less potash, and the quantity of nitrogen was not specified.

I read  _Practical Greenkeeping_ earlier this year and I thought it was a refreshingly informative book. The guidelines given by Arthur are suitable for growing conditions in the UK, but in other environments his advice is perhaps less relevant. I do agree with Arthur’s general assertion that nitrogen is often the only nutrient required for putting green maintenance; a survey of soil samples collected from 1800 golf greens in the UK and Ireland found that 90% of the greens were high in phosphorus and only 7% tested low in potassium. Research in South Africa, England, and the United States has shown that weed invasion of grass swards is enhanced by the application of phosphorus and potassium. Thus it would seem that nitrogen alone would make an excellent fertilizer under many growing conditions. Although that is not the accepted wisdom nowadays, I respect Jim Arthur for telling it the way he saw it, and I think his book _Practical Greenkeeping_ makes a nice counterpoint to the less opinionated turfgrass textbooks that are more readily available in the United States.

Don_Mahaffey

Re:Jim Arthur
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2005, 12:12:51 PM »
Steve,
No doubt you are more familiar with Arthur's ideas about growing grass then I, but it's hard to imagine that Arthur could obtain such notoriety without some validation of his teachings.
Like most supers I study agronomy and some of the reading I enjoy most is from the Acres USA guys, Albrecht, Walters, Kinsey…They don’t seem to exactly echo Arthur, but what they do warn against is simply accepting all turf research since most is generated from funds supplied by large companies that have a stake in the outcomes. I’m a lot more interested in learning about successful programs that individual supers are using to grow high quality, sustainable turf then I am reading about  what nutrient program I should be on from some PhD on retainer from Simplot.

Here in Oregon I’ve got greens that are about 70% poa and I hate them. The poa is such a weak grass that it can not tolerate solid agronomic practices such as deep and infrequent irrigation. Most of the “advisors” I’ve met here think I should do whatever I can to convert my greens to 100% poa. If there is an alternative short of resurfacing (which isn’t going to happen) I’d like to learn about it as managing for poa greens just goes against everything that feels right to me.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2005, 12:33:32 PM by Don_Mahaffey »

Stuart Hallett

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Re:Jim Arthur
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2005, 03:30:58 PM »
Don,

I did know Jim Arthur as he lectured me a couple of times during my greenkeeping studies. Let me start by saying he was a true Gentleman with conviction and a wealth of agronomical knowledge.

Like Steve, I often found his stance rather unforgiving towards turf managers with established Poa greens. His statements are dismissive of Poa and lack constructive advice on how to reconvert predominantly Poa greens.

Other comments in this thread are too general and do not cover the complexities of Poa, not to mention turf management techniques.

- Are we talking about Poa annua or Poa reptans ? (big difference in appearance, playability and behaviour).

- How much is a little N or K ? I agree with no P, unless you're on USGA type greens. K is very useful for heat stress, we experienced a heatwave of 35+°C temps. this week in Paris, a so-called temperate climate.

- What about micro-nutrients or calcium levels ? This can compensate for N applications.

O.K ! I agree, Poa has shallow rooting, is susceptible to disease and can look unsightly from time to time. However, Poa reptans arguably produces the best putting surfaces. It  tolerates close cutting, has miraculous recovery rates, and contrary to popular belief, can be managed with N rates as low as 30-40kg/ha/year.

My advice is to stress the Poa and favour the competition (in our case Agrostis tenuis) whenever possible to provoke better rooting. You need to know when to ease up and bring the Poa back to life to avoid excessive damage. I call this "Tipping the balance" and just like architecture, if you don't have the feeling for it, then you are going to struggle.

There is an excellent article on Poa, written by Tom COOK(Oregon State University).

Good Luck and don't write off your Poa just yet.

Stuart



Steve Okula

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Re:Jim Arthur
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2005, 05:15:30 PM »
Micah,

The survey you mention about only 7% of UK greens lacking potassium sounds interesting. Could you please tell me who did it and when? It runs contrary to my own experience on sand-based greens. I put out 300 kg/ha per year of potassium and my soil test results still show that element to be lacking.

Stuart,

Good to see you finally posting.

I mean no disrespect ot Jim Arthur as a gentlemen.

I can vouch that the greens at Stuart's course at St. Germain are predominantly Poa genus and about the best surfaces around. I recently begged some of their aeration plugs to put into our own nursery, which Stuart and Jean-Marc were kind enough to throw me. So I am actively seeking to promote desirable Poa. Whether they are one of the 300 plus varieties of identified Poa annua or a variety of Poa reptans, maybe Stuart could tell us.

Don,

I don't know the Pacific northwest, but I believe that the climate around northern France is similar in temperatures with a lot of rainfall, if not quite so much as you get. The GCS down the road at St. Nom-la-Breteche, Bill Warnick, hails from Oregon and that's what he tells me. I don't know anybody around here who keeps Poa-free greens, though there are a number of courses with excellent putting surfaces.

I question the idea of infrequent, deep waterings. In most cases that I've managed, the infiltration rates just don't allow it. Even on a good USGA green, with standard sprinkler heads, once you get even a little thatch and compaction, what happens is the excess water only runs off, wasting a lot of money if you're paying for it, and causing problems like bunker washes  and puddling around the greens. And if you're on heavy soil greens, just forget about it. Heavy, infrequent watering sounds nice in theory, but I've always had much more success with nightly watering just to replace the day's ET loss.

As for proper watering, what I think is crucial yet I rarely hear any experts mention is a simple spot watering with a hand-held hose.













The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

Micah Woods

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Jim Arthur
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2005, 05:56:53 PM »
Steve,

The study showing just 7% of greens testing low in extractable potassium was published by D.M. Stansfield in the Journal of the Sports Turf Research Institute in 1985. The results are a summary of 1800 samples from golf greens tested from 1978-1981.

I don't dispute the importance of adequate potassium supplies to maintain healthy turfgrass (of any species). However, the question that I have is whether the levels considered "low" in the soil are correct for turfgrass, or not. I did a study in 2002-2003 on a creeping bentgrass sand green testing low in soil potassium. I applied potassium in 6 incremental rates from 0 to 810 kg per hectare per year, and we could not see any beneficial response to the added potassium. That leads me to believe that the interpretation of the test as "low" was incorrect.

When I have investigated the history of potassium use on golf courses, there seems to have been a huge shift from the first to second half of the 20th century. The philosophy of Jim Arthur and C.M. Murray and the pre-1950 USGA Green Section was that potassium in most cases was present in adequate supplies in the soil to support fine turfgrass. At present, potassium is applied in large quantities, sometimes at rates greater than that of nitrogen. However, it is not at all clear to me that one can expect a benefit from all of this potassium application.

Stuart Hallett

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Re:Jim Arthur
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2005, 05:57:48 PM »
Steve,

I've never even contemplated identifying all the biotypes of Poa on our greens, however I can spot that sickly green coloured one a mile off (looks like Poa suppina). It must be responsable for 75% of fungicide applications in Northern Europe, I hope we spared you of that one.

From what I understand, contrary to reptans, even the older perrenial biotypes of Poa annua flower now and again.

Craig Sweet

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Re:Jim Arthur
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2005, 08:18:26 PM »
Interesting discussion...here's a little something I was looking at recently about on going Penn State studies of different Poa annua cultivars.

http://usgatero.msu.edu/v03/n09.pdf
LOCK HIM UP!!!

Steve Curry

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Re:Jim Arthur
« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2005, 08:41:18 PM »
Micah,

Great to see you posting here...

And right up your alley!

Steve

James Bennett

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Re:Jim Arthur
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2005, 09:03:38 PM »
Craig Sweet


That is a great article that has been published around the world.  To me, it emphasises that if you have good, 'old' poa in your greens (and fairways, perhaps as a companion grass), look after it.  Once you decide to kill it, then 'new', coarse poa will find its way in.  It explains why, when we resurface, the clumpy, large seed-head poa invades, unlike the older bent/poa mix greens.

Some courses here have used their cores to establish new nurseries and putting greens.  A cheap alternative to retain consistent greens across the course, rather than seek out the latest 'pure bent' that will require all 18 greens to change over.  The latter gives a better surface, but at too great a cost for some clubs and with too much transition/mix of green types as well.
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Don_Mahaffey

Re:Jim Arthur
« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2005, 10:45:49 PM »
Don't get me wrong, I know there are very good poa greens out there, I've played quite a few, and I know there are lots of good supts who manage poa. But, that doesn't mean I have to like the stuff.
I'm tending to think more of the future and what management techniques to use to keep greens clean of poa, as I have no doubt that although it may make a fine surface in the right environment, it definitely requires more inputs then other grass types.

Steve,
On bent greens in the past I dramatically cut my hand watering when I went to a deep, infrequent irrigation program. You'd think it would be the opposite, but by the second year, after a year of the new irrigation program, moving some heads around, and cleaning out and fixing some greens drains we had little to no hand watering requirements.

With the poa I have now, I can water heavy at night and if it's 85 or higher the following afternoon I better have someone dragging hose. It just doesn't seem to be a grass you can harden off to drought stress at all.

Marc Haring

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Re:Jim Arthur
« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2005, 05:13:29 AM »
There's a big discussion going on in the UK about converting poa to fescue at the moment. Here's a link to an article.
http://www.bigga.org.uk/greenkeeper/viewstory.php?id=632

Craig Sweet

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Re:Jim Arthur
« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2005, 07:01:16 AM »
Don, could you give a little more information when you say you went to deep, infrequent irrigation? How often, how much H2O? What type of climate were you in?

My experience from 17 years in the hort. biz has been that plants, whether it be grass or a maple tree, respond much better and are healthier, when they recieve deep and infrequent irrigation.

I have raised this idea where I currently work, but there is concern we'll burn up the course in summer. Montana is dry, and we can go months without any measurable moisture from mother nature. Another concern is the time required to irrigate our course at current levels. It starts at 9:30pm and is just finishing up at 6:30am...longer irrigation intervales per head might add an hour or more to that process.
LOCK HIM UP!!!

Don_Mahaffey

Re:Jim Arthur
« Reply #16 on: May 30, 2005, 11:26:34 AM »
Craig,
We were growing bent in an arid climate. Half the greens were sand based with subsurface drain tile and half were soil greens. I don't have the physical soil test results handy, but the soil was rather heavy. Water quality was poor with an EC of about 1 - 1.5 and a sodium absorption rate of around 19. These numbers may not be exact as I'm going from memory, but you get the picture. The greens had failed in the past.

We knew that the only way to grow quality turf was to keep the water moving through the profile.
On the sand greens we uncovered all the green outfalls and made sure we could get the greens to drain. To unlock some of them we had to run hours and hours of irrigation before they finally broke free. Once we could get them to drain we never watered less then what it took to run a significant amount of water through the drains. We didn't want just a trickle, we wanted the drains to flush. We found that about 2 hours of water (about 1 - 1.25 inches of H20) on a 4-5 day cycle worked best. The greens reacted well to this program. We thought for sure that we would make a mess of the surrounds, but actually the entire greens complexes seemed to respond positively to the program.
On the soil greens we ended up using a very similar program. After testing the physical properties of the soil we worked with a consultant to determine how much water we needed to use to move water all the way through the profile. Before we started we could barley get a 3/4 soil probe a couple of inches into the green. After about six months I could bury a large soil probe all the way to the handle with very little force using just one arm, yet the greens surface was firm.

I think the hardest part of adopting a deep infrequent program is just taking the plunge and believing in it. If your growing salt sensitive turf with poor quality water, you really don't have a choice. I think the biggest advantage of a deep, infrequent program is improved rooting and it's not because the roots smell water down deep and try to reach it. Roots are going to go wherever the water is, if it's in the top 2 inches of the soil then that's where they will concentrate, if it's deeper the plant will, hopefully, form a deeper root mass, but I really believe that's a secondary response to deep irrigation. I believe the primarily benefit of deep irrigation is increased air exchange in the soil and better aeration porosity. I remember from my soils courses that just about all soils are 50% solid and 50% air. The difference between a sand and a clay soil is the size of the air spaces. The larger the air spaces the better the drainage, the better the drainage the better the air exchange. the better the air exchange the better the roots and the better the roots , the healthier the plant. Deep, infrequent flushing irrigation aerates the soil and helps to keep the macro pores open as the greens age.
And yes, when you go to a program like this you will probably not be able to irrigate the rest of the course on the nights you do the greens. Of course if your treating the entire course with deep infrequent, then it's not hard to do the scheduling. That's my belief on the subject of deep, infrequent irrigation. Hope it makes some sense.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2005, 11:29:25 AM by Don_Mahaffey »

Joe Hancock

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Re:Jim Arthur
« Reply #17 on: May 30, 2005, 11:44:48 AM »
Fellas,

Not sure if we're heading off topic, or already are off topic, but I just got home from the course, and all this irrigation talk seems so important I thought I'd chime in.

I've talked with Don about his flushing methods, and I think when soils and/ or water is less than ideal it is a great idea.

Craig,

I have push up greens on a very flat site in a river basin. Underneath, however, is sand and gravel. When I bought this course, all woes had been dealt with through more irrigation. Now 8 years later, with trial and error (usually erred on the dry side), I have greens that may be the healthiest I've ever had..or seen..or been on. Anyone in the Grand Rapids area this weekend is welcome to drop by, just 4 miles off US 131.

The key, in my opinion, to this whole thing is slowly transitioning. Don, you can go from that high precentage of poa to a high percentage of bent....if the owner lets you dry things out and buy Primo. It takes years, though, to reverse what the plant has been used to if it has seen copious amounts of water in the past.

Fertility is always debatale, and so much depends on traffic that there can and never will be one "correct" program regardless of species or soil type.

I remember working on the course I now own some 27 years ago. It used to take 2 employees half a day just to fix ball marks....every day! Now, we can have our busiest league night (well over 100 people on the course) and we come in the next day, mow greens and spend zero time fixing ball marks...there aren't any. It can happen, but it takes several years to get there.

Joe

p.s. It helps when the guy wanting to dry things out is also the owner.
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Craig Sweet

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Re:Jim Arthur
« Reply #18 on: May 30, 2005, 01:06:39 PM »
Time and patience. I was just having this discussion with my supt. this morning. We discussed Poa and herbicide/pesticide use, and weening the turf off all the junk. It's my personal opinion that over time you can bring your turf around to where you need little or no chemicals (other than ferts. and micronutriants from time to time) to maintain healthy, pest and disease free grass. I am not saying you can totally eliminate the need for some fungicide or pesticide use, but I would think it's application would be the exception and not the rule. And yes, the initial weening would be brutal and I'm sure give you reason to question what you're doing.

I think what Don said regarding deep, infrequent irrigation is a major step in producing better turf. Deeper roots, better air exchange, all make for a healtheir plant.

What does all this have to do with Poa? Well, I think Don's point is the Poa does not like the infrequent irrigation, but other grass (a bent for example) is more tolerant and would eventually replace the Poa. Is this not correct?

Boy, I think I need to go play some golf this afternoon.
LOCK HIM UP!!!

Joe Hancock

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Re:Jim Arthur
« Reply #19 on: May 30, 2005, 03:46:33 PM »
Craig,

Bingo. I mentioned to Don this morning that I have yet to spray a fungicide this year.....but once again, it takes time to get there.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Craig Sweet

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Re:Jim Arthur
« Reply #20 on: May 30, 2005, 08:25:36 PM »
Well, I played some golf and got that out of my system. It's very nice to be playing on the course you work on and have other golfers come over and compliment on how good the course is looking. But then, this time of year in the Rockies, you should look nice. In another month it'll stop raining and things get browner. Which is to say, we are not "lush" right now and our clients are liking it and hopefully they'll still like it in another month.

I was wondering Don, when you said you flush it out, really move some water thru the soil zones and out the drains...are you saying you are flushing out your "fines" when you do this? If so, I would imagine you have to top dress more frequently with the deep and infrequent program?
LOCK HIM UP!!!

Don_Mahaffey

Re:Jim Arthur
« Reply #21 on: May 30, 2005, 10:00:52 PM »
Craig,
Nope, not flushing particles, although I guess it's possible some small amount of material may move through the green. Object is to solublize the bad stuff and remove it from the root zone. Although I also believe deep, infrequent is a plus even if you have good water and soil. I think most USGA greens, or any greens with drain tile for that matter, function better when they are allowed to dry down and then are brought up to field capacity each time irrigation is turned on. It would keep the drains open and functioning and I think it would help to keep the root zone open and breathing also. Don't expect everyone to agree with me, but that's my belief and I'm sticking with it!

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Jim Arthur
« Reply #22 on: May 31, 2005, 04:40:40 PM »
I got the sense from a long ago previous post that Donnie Beck agrees with you.

I would be most curious to try this here in "arid" Montana with our 13 inches of precip. I bet over some time you would get hardier grass, (cold hardy) and more drought tolerant grass...AND avoid the dead and brown look we sometimes see on TV during the British Open.
LOCK HIM UP!!!

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Jim Arthur
« Reply #23 on: June 02, 2005, 07:08:44 AM »
Speaking of Jim Arthur, in this article on top dressing particle size, he gives a backhanded endorsement for deep, infrquent irrigation.

It sounds like an endorsement for the "flushing" that Don speaks of.

http://www.bigga.org.uk/greenkeeper/viewstory.php?id=468
LOCK HIM UP!!!

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Jim Arthur
« Reply #24 on: August 25, 2013, 05:27:46 AM »
Was surfing along and though the following might be of interest.

This case study fits with what Joe H stated about the time/patience needed for conversion.

www.greenkeeper.com/upload/alinea_1418.pdf

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