Disability meets Bethpage Black

[Matt_Ward]

Last night on the local news station (WCBS-TV New York / Channel 2) ran a short piece on their "Shame on You" section in which they highlighted the situation of a former policeman who had been seriously injured while riding his police motorcycle.

After a long recovery the policeman -- an avid golfer -- returned to the game in earnest playing at various parks like Eisenhower and others on Long Island.

One of his dreams was in playing the famed Black Course at Bethpage State Park.

Unfortunately, as many on this site likely already know, the Black doesn't permit motorized carts -- only walkers are permitted at all times.

The policeman -- who regularly plays in the high 70's and low 80's made a case that without a cart he could not play golf at a course owned by New York State and therefore subject to the terms / language of the American with Disabilities Act (used by Casey Martin in his case against the PGA Tour). In addition, he made the argument during the segment that there have been times when carts have been used -- a fundraiser held at the Black prior to the Republican Convention last year was mentioned and a photograph in Newsday showed a clear picture of various carts riding on the Black prior to the start of the event.

The lead Parks official for Long Island made the point that carts were not used for the event but simply "transported" players to designated tees for their shotgun start. After transporting players the actual carts were left on the course in order to allow the players to return to the clubhouse when they concluded their round at the hole they finished.

One of the arguments made by the Parks official was the "danger" in using carts on the Black since there are no cart paths. The policeman disputed the danger argument and said that all reasonable efforts should be brought forward to allow those with disabilities the opportunity to play the course. The ultimate decision on whatever "danger" is involved would fall upon the person with the disability -- not the facility, according to him.

On the flip side Bethpage does have other courses where carts are permitted for use and carts were used throughout the playing of the US Open in 2002 -- although not by players but by officials and others in a support role for the conducting of the event.

No doubt both sides have strong cases and I have to wonder if some sort of compromise can be had that would preserve the fundamental nature of the Black as a walking only course but at the same time deal with the real needs of those who clearly meet the Disabilities Act.

The policeman did say that a possible lawsuit may be forthcoming. It will be interesting to see how this is finally resolved since the architecture of the course has always been protected against the impact carts provide today.

 

[Kyle Harris]

Not to add fuel to this fire, but when the Black holds shotguns, they do drive the groups out to each hole.

I am all for walking, but not accomodating is ludicrous. Find a way and make it possible.

Yeah, the same attitude that had the courses built in the first place.

[PThomas]

My God, give the guy a cart already....

arguing against a cart in these types of situations is absolutely ridiculous , IMHO

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Matt-

  That's very interesting.  I don't know enough about the legal grounds and so forth, but it would also open the floodgates for who knows what else to follow.  

Everybody and their brother will be asking for a cart, and thankfully, it's the banning of carts that keeps a lot of people off the Black.  

  Having said that, it's easy to argue against this when it's someone not related to you--the situation lacks the personal connection.  I wonder if there would be a way to take him around in a maintenance vehicle, say a John Deere Gator, or something, and let him play, and be done with it.  It still sets a precedent, though.  

[Don Herdrich]

I think this gentleman has a case.........I would hate to see this impact private clubs who are walking only

Another reason for not opening you club to outside events.......

[Doug Braunsdorf]

I think this gentleman has a case.........I would hate to see this impact private clubs who are walking only

Another reason for not opening you club to outside events.......

Well, the Black isn't a club, per se.

Are many private clubs walking only?  

[Mike Hendren]

It's simple - put yourself in his shoes, literally.

Mike

[Don Herdrich]

The Black not being a private club probably makes them more susceptible to this litigation..........I was making the jump to private clubs if they do in fact find for the plaintiff that he can use a cart.

Off the top of my head, Secession is walking only.

[Matt_Ward]

I don't doubt the policeman makes a very clear and convincing case -- in addition the spokesman for LI parks appeared from the telecast to cut a very terse response to what is clearly a sympathetic case.

My issue is that those who are clearly disabled should be provided with a cart -- my issue is that you will have those types who have a hang nail also looking for a cart. The very nature of the Black could then be turned on its head with cart paths being created.

Where does the line get drawn and who draws it?

Likely, a legal action will settle it but I would think the folks who run the NY State Parks would move quickly to cut-off this issue from developing into an even more negative PR issue.

Don H:

The issue is not opening to outside groups -- it's about being a taxpayer-owned facility that falls under the requirements of the Americans with Disabilities Act.

[Kirk Gill]

"I'm so old and overweight that my doctor says I have to have a cart".............

"I'm pregnant and so I need a cart"...............

"I have a really bad hangover from getting wasted while waiting in line last night, and so I need a cart"...........

The problem isn't with the poor guy who really needs it. It's the swine who would take advantage of any crack in the rules. It's amazing that this hasn't come up already.

[Kyle Harris]

Give a cart to anyone who has a Disability Tag for their car. No questions asked and pretty clear cut.

Let people abuse the Disability Tag law and leave the golf courses out of it. It's much easier.

[Matt_Ward]

Kyle:

What happens if carts are restricted to paths (paved or otherwise) because of poor weather.

Does that then mean the person who is disabled will have to have an exception made in order to use carts and get immediate access to where the ball is located?

P.S. Your idea that a disabled card will sort this out sounds reasonable though.

[Don Herdrich]

great point........sometimes you do more walking with a cart than actually walking the course!

[Jeff_Brauer]

"I'm so old and overweight that my doctor says I have to have a cart".............

"I'm pregnant and so I need a cart"...............

"I have a really bad hangover from getting wasted while waiting in line last night, and so I need a cart"...........

The problem isn't with the poor guy who really needs it. It's the swine who would take advantage of any crack in the rules. It's amazing that this hasn't come up already.

I'm no lawyer, but the guy is making a reasonable request, and is within his rights under the ADA.  Generally, no one has legal problems with a golf loving guy who becomes disabled and wants to play the great courses.....just treat him fairly.

Under ADA, a condition must be permanent and life altering.  Hangnails, Pregnancy and Hangovers definitly don't count.  Overweight may in extreme cases.  Hmm, not sure about old in and of itself......However, Forbes did an article a few years back estimating that 43 Million Americans could be classified as disabled under the broadest interpretation of the law.  Of course, some do jump on the bandwagon (remember the Simpsons episode where Homer gains 100 lbs. to qualify for working at home under ADA?  I'll bet that had some basis in truth) and the DOJ is generally in favor of liberal interpretations, so that no disabled American is denied their rights under this law.

A cart with orange flag should be provided, but all access must be reasonable.  Generally, if the course determines that (and it should do so under some kind of a written policy previously established, and not a whim) wet conditions make it either unsafe, or potentially damaging to the greens and tees, etc. access would not be considered reasonalble.  

Providing carts only to the legally disabled shouldn't set a huge precedent - I know a few senior PGA Tour guys have used them temporarily, and older ones constantly, but the wholesale jumping on the cart hasn't happened, to my knowledge.  In the public sector, I think the walking only would still be enforceable at the Black.

As to who determines, unfortunatly, the individual courses do, and if someone has a complaint, it is settled through an ADA mediator from Dept. of Justice, or litigation.  The law was intended to have a flexible interpretation settled in these ways.....aint America great?

BTW, all courses are covered.  There are "private clubs" for  discriminaton and other compliance reasons - generally under 400 members, no outside income from weddings, etc. and strict guest policies, including no business guests. (Clubs that fit the first two criteria often strictly enforce the no talking about business rule to fit the third) are probably exempt from ADA - for now.  Most private clubs don't fit that description, and are considered "places of public accomodation" and are just as subject to ADA as any other public or business facilities.

If you think golf courses have safety and access issues, consider the plight of ski hills, water parks, and roller coasters, who also must comply.

[Anthony_Nysse]

It's not much different that me not being able to get on some of the greatest courses in the world.....I may never get to play Augusta because of there policies and strict codes...just like this guy may never play The Black....each course has it's own rules and those ARE the rules that we have to abide by.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle:

What happens if carts are restricted to paths (paved or otherwise) because of poor weather.

Does that then mean the person who is disabled will have to have an exception made in order to use carts and get immediate access to where the ball is located?

P.S. Your idea that a disabled card will sort this out sounds reasonable though.

Matt,

In most cases with inclement weather, the golf course will attach a flag to the cart indicating that it is allowed off the path. At Talamore, we actually have two grades of flag, red and yellow, and certain scatter rules apply to each. Red flags are basically permitted everywhere and are given in the case of surgery or permanent disability, and yellow flags tend to be used for chronic or temporary cases, and they are slightly more restricted.

Complicated, yes, but it works out pretty well.

[Cliff Hamm]

I am frankly appalled by some of the responses on this thread.  Not getting to play Augusta because it is private and exclusive and not being able to play a public course because of a disability are not even closely analogous.  Besides the legal ramifications it is simply a human issue.  If one has a disability plate on their car they have a verified disability.  The course may restrict the cart to the rough and utilize a 90 degree or scatter rule.  Kyle articulated this well. If indeed the course is so wet that harm would be done on that particular day carts would not be allowed on fairways.  

Despite how some may feel allowing a golf cart for disabled is not going to destroy the game or your experience.  My understanding is for example that Bandon does allow carts for disabled folks. For those who have played Bandon did this ruin your day?  How many of the top courses in the country ban carts?  Not many.  Let's not put the sanctity of golf above common sense and have some empathy for those who may be less fortunate.  

[Don Herdrich]

JB, thanks for clarification.........I knew some private clubs were subject to ADA

A quick question for the board: does holding a USGA qualifier at a private club constitute that venue as a "place of public accomodation"?

[Chris Kane]

At many of the older clubs in Australia, motorised carts are not permitted, except for members who present a medical certificate to show they cannot walk.  

Seems like the logical solution for "walking only" couses anywhere.

[peter_mcknight]

If/when the policeman takes the State of New York to court over his ADA rights, he will take them to court in federal court.  There is no two ways about it--the policeman's position will triumph at all federal court levels.  Bethpage is a state park, thus a very public place and very much must include ADA.

If the state government in Albany know of any improvements about to be made at Bethpage spending $0.01 of public funds, they have every right to require the NY State Parks system to construct accessibility for ADA compliance as part of the approval for public funds for improvement.

Put another way, if a school district passes a school bond and does improvement at a school site, pretty much most states will require that each school site becomes ADA compliant as part of the facility improvement package.  I know that is the way we do it here in California--no other improvements will be approved by DSA until the ADA is included and accomplished first, especially when state funds are utilized.  It really isn't any different at Bethpage State Park.

The best piece ever done in the media about ADA was when John Stossel interviewed the ADA chief about certain interpretations over ADA, what is classified as a disability, etc.  The ADA chief had to stop the interview repeatedly to consult with his staff counsel to answer questions accordingly--one such stop was for an hour.

You can bet, if this is taken to its logical extreme, there will be cart paths all over the Black Course.  ADA, as currently enforced, could demand such a response from the NY State Parks System.  It would be much easier to cut some sort of deal to preserve the walking (primarily) only policy.

[Cliff Hamm]

You can bet, if this is taken to its logical extreme, there will be cart paths all over the Black Course.  ADA, as currently enforced, could demand such a response from the NY State Parks System.  It would be much easier to cut some sort of deal to preserve the walking (primarily) only policy.

Why would that be so?  ADA requires a "reasonable accomodation".  Nothing more, nothing less.  Paved cart paths would likely go beyond what is considered reasonable.  Having access to a cart does not.  I didn't realize that making reasonable accomodations for the disabled was "cutting a deal".  I thought it was the law.

[peter_mcknight]

If another state park golf course has a paved cart path, that could be the definition of what "reasonable" is and could be used as legal argument in federal court.  What is considered "reasonable" sometimes changes during public construction.

The comment about a "deal" isn't meant to proscribe compliance with existing law/regulations--the "deal" as I understand it, would be to give the policeman a cart, but not construct paved cart paths and Bethpage could still retain its walking policy.  Perhaps the policeman could live with that, and, if so, that could/should be considered a "deal."

[Cliff Hamm]

Peter...I certainly agree that this 'case' should be settled before it reaches the courts.  The courts can over extend and at times make ludicrious rulings as we all know.  It certainly reminds me a bit of the Casey Martin case.  The PGA was incredibly naive and ignorant to take a case, which they could only lose, to court.  If you are going to litigate at least take a case where you might win.  

At the same time it would be highly unlikely, but possible, that the courts would require paved cart paths even if other courses had them.  Reasonable is open to interpretation.  A golf course would need to show that this was unreasonable and impacted the integrity of the golf course - not really that difficult.

The larger issue though is not the court but what is right.  This is a no brainer.  If disabled folks all had carts at Bethpage would it somehow ruin your day?  I may choose to walk and object to courses where walking is not permitted.  I frankly though don't find my day ruined because others would rather ride.  No I don't desire or like paved cart paths.  They are not necessary, however, to meet the intent and the letter of ADA.  

Many of us complain about the courts and laws.  If we simply did the right thing there would be nothing to complain about as there would be no need for ADA and the subsequent court interpretations.  As was said in so many words earlier "there but for the grace of God go I".  We all need to put ourselves in others shoes to understand why ADA is so important.

[Bill Gayne]

Give the gentleman a cart it's the right thing to do for the image of the game. The image for golf of not providing a cart is awful. To the non-golfer in the community, We are talking about a policeman that places his life on the line to serve the public good probably including the areas around Bethpage. He was injured in the line of duty. Now that the officer has a disability the community he has spent his time serving will not return to him the ability to go out and play a round on the Black Course. Find a dry day, invite out the local press, give him a cart for the day, and improve the image of golf. Hell, invite out the whole police squadron for the morning and then give them a BBQ.

Beyond the image of golf reasons, I think it's the right thing to do.

[Don Herdrich]

I do not think carts being on the course would "ruin" someone's day.....that has no bearing one way or the other.  BB does not offer carts, plain and simple.  If they were to allow them for disabled patrons, how is disabled defined?  Handicap permits for autos?  Doctor notes?  The person's word?  I agree there should be an accomodation made, but what about a disabled person who feels due to ADA he or she shouldn't have to wait overnight for a spot at BB??  We can take all these to the extreme and believe you me there are lawyers salivating at the chance to do just this.  I personally know several lawyers who look for these cracks and crevices in the law.....and they do very well.

I'm all for access for everyone on public establishments, but there also have to be rules.  This is a tough one and I think the NY State Park System would lose.