Aerial of the Day #154 - Updated

[Kyle Harris]

I think the par 3s are more telling of this being a Flynn design, especially the two in the middle of the picture.

17 is too much of a dogleg to remind me of the 4th at Huntingdon Valley. Also, doesn't seem like the preferred angle into the green is on the outside of the dogleg but rather, further down the hole.

Steve,

Enjoying the airshow?

Wayne,

We still on for tomorrow?

[mike_malone]

 Throw in #12 Rolling Green and it is a good set of short fours.

[Mike_Cirba]

Enjoying the airshow?

Kyle,

Is that what's going on overhead?  

Man, it sounds like Dresden in my office.  

[Kyle Harris]

Mike,

It's the Blue Angels practicing... Talamore sounds like Dresden...

If not for the houses, wouldn't be a bad idea.  

BTW, I'll have the Schuylkill Country Club review done by tonight. Same with the White Course... I'll send it to you.

[ChasLawler]

Wayne,
Did they keep the rounded tees as part of the renovation? I notice a mixture of both square and round tees in the aerial.

Do you know if Flynn favored one form over the other?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Kyle

The airshow is much more fun at Commonwealth.


Steve

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Wayne-

   That hole in the center-running top to bottom--I am figuring that's #12, based on #1 starting in the shoadow of the clubhouse, and moving left to right at the bottom of the property--it looks like a MONSTER.  What's the yardage?  It looks like 6-something, almost like the 9th at RG.  

Cabell,

Good question about tees.  If I remember correctly--there were both at RG.  Wayne, Mike?  

Also, I recall--the one tee at RG--I think it was the back tee for #8--I was always wondering why the front was square, and the back was rounded off.  Wayne, Mike?  

[mike_malone]

Doug,
    When tees were added years ago, they did not care about squared teees.

[Eric Pevoto]

Kyle,

What is it about the par 3's that's telling to you?

On the whole, the things that stand out most to me is the number of greens set at an angle to the axis of the hole and the complexity of the routing (triangulation).  

[Scott_Burroughs]

Wayne-

   That hole in the center-running top to bottom--I am figuring that's #12, based on #1 starting in the shoadow of the clubhouse, and moving left to right at the bottom of the property--it looks like a MONSTER.  What's the yardage?  It looks like 6-something, almost like the 9th at RG.  

587, according to golfcourse.com.  I wonder if big hitters can
hit the left-hand knob on the first fairway and go for the
green with a draw around the tree...

[wsmorrison]

Eric, Scott, Doug, and Mike,

As far as 17 goes, looks are deceiving, well 2-dimensional ones anyway.  This hole at TCC, Pepper Pike is unlike the 1st at Phila Country (formerly the 16th), the 12th at Pine Valley or the 4th at Huntingdon Valley.  They look a bit alike from the air .

The 17th at TCC, PP plays uphill to a fairly level plateau fairway.  From the tee the near and far fairway lines really must be considered, like the 1st at Shinnecock Hills.  The fairway then slopes sharply downhill, so club selection/distance is key as you can have a downhill lie to an uphill green that is well bunkered.  The green slopes severely right to left and back to front.

The 1st at PCC is fairly straight away with the green set at an angle.  The 17th turns quite a bit more.  The fairway at PCC is generally level.  I'd say the 1st at PCC is much more like the 12th at Pine Valley, especially if the trees on the left were removed up so you could see the green from the tee and the mounds and sandy waste was exposed as it is at PCC.  The 4th at HVCC has two tees, one on ground level on the left along the line of play so the hole plays a bit more like PCC and PVGC.  The other tee is to the right and really elevated.  In both cases, play along the right side is a good idea.

Cabell

As for tees, Flynn had different styles, square, long with rounded corners, banana and other weird shapes.  If I had to say in general, he used rectangular tees.

[wsmorrison]

Eric,

Interesting you'd pick up on the routing.  This was the course that convinced Ron Forse of Flynn's routing skills: getting the most out of the land while creating variety, balance and interest.

I also liked the way Flynn set his greens at an angle to the fairway axis.  Much like the 5th at Rolling Green, the 3rd hole is set at an angle with the deep fronting bunkers.

The par 5 in the middle is the 12th and was built at 575 yards, pretty long considering the dogleg.  It used to have the stream exposed running across from 300-370 yards out.  It was diverted into a culvert and turfed over.  I think although it would normally be out of play, it would look better if it were exposed.  I don't know the hydrological issues so I cannot speak of the maintenance implications.

Kyle,

Yes, we're on for tomorrow.  See you around 7:45am!

[Doug Braunsdorf]

You know, when we look at this aerial, it is possible to see many different little combinations of holes to play.
The subject of triangulation, brought up by Eric and Wayne,
was I believe discussed in reference to another Flynn club--I forget which one--but it was obvious that one could play, say, a 3 or 4 hole loop, of consecutive and non-consecutive holes, starting at and returning to the clubhouse.  

Mike, Wayne-do you guys do this at RG?  If I recall the routing correctly, one could play 1-5 and jump over for 17-18, no?  Or maybe 15-18, or 15-16-7-8-9?  

Just a thought--some boards frown on this sort of thing.  

[Kyle Harris]

Eric,

Mainly that they were similar to other threes he's built. The one in the upper middle of the picture (I'm not familiar with the routing, don't hurt me Wayne...) reminds me of the tenth at Rolling Green and 4th at Huntingdon Valley - A long and stretched out Redan, which was something Flynn seemed to have a lot of.

The one to the lower left sits almost like the fifth at HVCC.

Not to nitpick, but I meant to say that the Par 3s were more telling of a Flynn design than the 17th in the picture. The 17th I believe more resembles the 17th at Oakmont than any of the examples cited. (Get the tee shot as far down the hole as possible... make a hard turn and throw a wedge on the green).

[Mark_Fine]

Kyle,
The 17th at The Country Club if anything somewhat resembles the 17th hole at Glen View (Flynn's course in Chicago).  It does not resemble Oakmont's 17th in anyway that I can see.
Mark

One more point, it is the greens at TCC that most reflect Flynn.  If you play a lot of different Flynn courses/greens you feel right at home on these.  Nothing over the top and a lot of subtle undulations.  
Mark

[Eric Pevoto]

More stick figures.  

Contour intervals:  10ft
About 70 feet elevation change throughout

[wsmorrison]

I'll double check, but as I recall on my 2 foot topo there's only 40-50 feet of elevation change.  At least on the golf course itself.  But I've been wrong before  

[T_MacWood]

Wayne
I haven't been to Country Club in a few years, it's obvious they redid the bunkers from this aerial, are you pleased with the results? Do they accurately portrait Flynn's original work?

[wsmorrison]

Eric,

You were closer than I was.  It looks like there's 70 feet of elevation change.  The high point is the 6th green and 7th tee at 495 feet and the low is the 10th green at 425 feet.  Only the back end of 6 and the front end of 7 is at the higher elevation, the remainder of the course has only about 40 feet of elevation change.

[wsmorrison]

Tom,

I think the look of the bunkers and their surrounds is excellent today.  The bunkering is differrent today than in the Google aerial which must be 4-5 years old.  They returned the larger scale of Flynn's bunkers on a number of holes, at least as I recall.

The bunkering itself has a number of departures from the Flynn plan and the earliest aerial that we have from 1937.  

Hole 1:  There were no fairway bunkers on the Flynn plan, one on the right and two on the left in the 1937 aerial.

Hole 2:  There is a fairway bunker at the inside of the turn in the 1937 aerial, not in the Google.  I'm certain that bunker has been put back.  It is a big improvement.  There was a single large bunker on the right of the green and 2 on the left.  The short round one on the left is not there and I don't think is today.

Hole 3:  You can see in the Google where the right fairway bunker is being reworked.  It is put back today much like the 1937 aerial.  There were two bunkers behind the green in the 1937 aerial and only one today, I think.

It pretty much goes on like this throughout the course.  I'd say if anything, the shapes of the bunkers have been simplified in the Google aerial and have been returned for the most part to the earlier look.  The fairway lines are not so straight in Flynn's plans and the earlier aerial.  My gut feeling is they've returned some of this flowing nature back to the fairways.

I have to run now, but the overall look today is impressive, far better than the Google look.  Sorry, but Kyle Harris awaits.  More later.

Great course!

[Mark_Fine]

I'm critical when it comes to the look of the bunkers.  I told Ralph I would have had them finished by hand as they have that smooth machined and rounded edge to them.  But that is just my opinion as I don't like that modern aesthetic on a classic design.  

Most of the green complexes are well preserved.  The 11th green looked like it was changed to me and Ralph confirmed that it was softened as well as the surrounds were altered. Mounding was also added around this green as it was behind #16.  Overall, however, the club did a good job restoring the greens out to the edges of the fill pads.  

One of my favorite aspects of this course was the restored width.  The club did a fantastic job widening the fairways and they also eliminated the first cut.  This really sets off the fairways.  Angles of play have been restored and penal hazards have once again become more strategic.  The fairway lines are very simple and not overly contoured.  It looks good.

Trees are still an issue but many have come down and more will follow.  There are numerous opportunities to restore long range views and vistas of other golf holes.  Many of these were pointed out and some of this work is already in progress.  I applaud Ralph for continuing to champion this through.  He also has great support from Jack (the Head Pro).  Jack provided me a very useful report explaining how he tracked handicaps of members for a year and found that handicaps actually went up after the fairways were widened and other work was completed on the golf course.  I have used this report to show other clubs and it has been great.  

TCC is an excellent golf course and with the committee in place now, it should only get better.
Mark

[Eric Pevoto]

Wayne,

Thanks.  I edited the original post.

This site is interesting.  Basically a bowled-out valley.  It's much wider and less linear than Huntingdon Valley. (The valley at HV is surprisingly narrow).

Wouldn't it be great to be able to overlay contours on the aerials?

[Chris Perry]

"Wouldn't it be great to be able to overlay contours on the aerials?"

You can. Photoshop is a wonderful thing.

Multiply modes take out white, Screen modes take out black.

The hard part would be making sure the scale and alignment are correct.

[Eric Pevoto]

Chris,

Thanks, wish I had Photoshop.  I'll have to look into that.

Doug B.,

Flynn's use of triangulation is interesting.  So many of his courses show this type of routing; I can't think of any out-and-back types  in his portfolio.

I love being able to play 3-4 hole loops.  Great for the evenings or time constraints.  If the two main things keeping people from playing more/any golf are money and a lack of time, maybe it should be given more consideration in modern golf.

To take it a bit further, for sake of variety, wouldn't it be interesting to be able to play different combinations of loops?

One of the more interesting routing situations associated with Flynn is at Kittansett.  It sits out on a point with the clubhouse and first few holes farther out on the point and more exposed to wind. In the summer they would use the conventional routing.  In the winter they moved to the more inland clubhouse near #10.  I'd like to know if or how they changed the hole sequence according to the season.

Got to go.  I'm headed up to the Delaware Water Gap for a weekend orienteering meet.  Looks like a great couple of days for running around in the woods!