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Steve Curry

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Troy, Travis, what great greens
« on: May 17, 2005, 08:33:52 AM »
Played CC of Troy yesterday, awesome movement in the greens.  I wish pictures could convey.






Am I the only one who thinks its hard to play golf and try take photos.

Steve

Steve Curry

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Re:Troy, Travis, what great greens
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2005, 08:43:39 AM »
Oh, I almost forgot, the course was in fantastic shape.  Also I don't have pictures from the last time I played, but, I think there are a few trees missing.  ;)

Steve

James Edwards

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Re:Troy, Travis, what great greens
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2005, 08:50:04 AM »
Steve,

Thanks for posting these.

Yes, I find it hard to take photos and play!!


Yes, you can see the subtle movement, if you look closely enough.

The Bunkering disapoints me somewhat from your photoghraphs, as they seem to be confused as to what style they are? Have they been refurbished?

Is the pimply effect of the mounding consistent throughout the course - meaning is it a design trait of Travis?

Cheers J
« Last Edit: May 17, 2005, 08:50:56 AM by James J.S Edwards »
@EDI__ADI

Scott Witter

Re:Troy, Travis, what great greens
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2005, 09:41:43 AM »
I can't speak with complete confidence about the bunkering...as you say regarding its consistency, but I believe Tom Doak has done some work their and he can probably clarify.  The mounds (pimples, chocolate drops...) are a feature that Travis did use, but in the 8 Travis courses I have seen, he didn't appear to use them with great consistency that would lead you to think they are a "trait" of his.  For example; they are used only two or three times at Stafford CC, twice on par threes, outside of Rochester NY and three times at the Yahnundasis CC in Utica NY.

Steve Curry

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Troy, Travis, what great greens
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2005, 10:08:04 AM »
James,

Troy is the only Travis I have played so its hard for me to compare.  I think its important to point out that Tom Doak is managing a restoration there and that the bunkers and mowing patterns are in a state of flux.  I know they used sod from on site to keep the bunker faces consistent with the course and keep the natural aesthetic.

Steve

Marty Bonnar

  • Total Karma: 11
Re:Troy, Travis, what great greens
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2005, 12:47:35 PM »
Damn cunning of Travis to know that because one day there'd be a scallop-trimmed awning overlooking one of his greens he should shape his chocolate drops accordingly...now that's what I call foresight.

FBD.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

ian

Re:Troy, Travis, what great greens
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2005, 09:18:25 PM »
Steve,

Bruce Hepner is there late in the summer to do bunker work. The course is in good hands. I plan on seeing the course this weekend if I have enough time. If I do I will post some thoughts and photos.


Scott,

Every mound except the classic set at #14/#3 was removed from Stafford CC. Nothing is origional except those mounds and a few around greens like the eleventh.

His style changed more than people realized. Unfortunately many (and I mean many) of the clubs removed all his mounds to save maintenance.


James,

There is an awful lot that looks original from these eyes. All you need to see is Hollywood to realize Travis was more versatile with bunkering than many think.

Scott Witter

Re:Troy, Travis, what great greens
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2005, 10:41:52 AM »
Ian,

The 14th par 3 at Stafford CC is an outstanding hole!  Given its length, the putting surface is by no means a give away is it?  Coming in over the front left bunker with the pin tucked away to the left makes you think...love that surface.  Good work there by the way.

mark chalfant

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Troy, Travis, what great greens
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2005, 04:54:10 PM »
Ian, make time because in addition to the superb greens there
is an abundance of great holes and neat up and down
movement int he terrain.Many of the greens have 2-3
levels.some of these ingenious grades are ledges and 1 or 2
are like shallow bathtubs.

I believe Troy (1927) is one of Travis' last designs.several great holes.#11 is a gorgeous 511 yards with an uphill appraoch to a plateau green. #2 is a neat 140 yds.#4 is a
rugged  480yds over a tilted rige to a green fronted by a brook.#9 (425yds) has lovely dropping approch to a stunning
green with a highly original contours.one of my favorite courses in the entire northeast  !

Steve Curry

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Troy, Travis, what great greens
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2005, 06:20:54 PM »
Some more photos...
4th Green


From the 5 tee looking back


9th approach, awesome drop to the green


11th approach


Travis Plan


15 green


16 tee


18 greenside bunkers are deep


Patrick_Mucci

Re:Troy, Travis, what great greens
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2005, 06:35:38 PM »
Steve,

Interesting photos, especially the mounds.

It reminded me of Hollywood.

I'm also anxious to see CC of Scranton.

I find it puzzling that interesting greens are being maintained, but not that many built.

It's amazing what those old guys could do with rudimentary equipment.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Troy, Travis, what great greens
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2005, 06:45:20 PM »
Steve,

Great pictures...thanks for sharing!

Patrick,

I think you'd love CC of Scranton.  It was a wonderful course before and Ian's crew has been making it even better.

Steve Curry

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Troy, Travis, what great greens
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2005, 07:00:08 PM »
Some that I spoke with after the day said the greens are screwy, unfair and I say crap to that.  They are some of the most exciting greens and require one to think in more than one dimension, the source of the distaste to be sure.  Troy's green mandate the use of thought and often the way to the cup is not a straight line.

The course is truly a gem and it has so much to do with the thinking required.

Steve

T_MacWood

Re:Troy, Travis, what great greens
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2005, 07:02:17 PM »
Steve
Great pictures. Some of these pictures remind me a little of the North Jersey pictures posted a while back. Travis sure built some devilish greens.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2005, 07:11:53 PM by Tom MacWood »

Steve Curry

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Troy, Travis, what great greens
« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2005, 07:07:16 PM »
Oh and by the way the construction seen behind nine is a practice area that replaced some tennis courts.  ;)

I had a great time at a great course but I sure am disheartened to have missed Hidden Creek.  :'(

Steve


T_MacWood

Re:Troy, Travis, what great greens
« Reply #15 on: May 21, 2005, 07:18:54 PM »
Ian
I'd never noticed this before, but looking at Travis's plan it appears that all the fairway bunkers are of the humps and hollow (with sand) variety, and conventional bunkers are exclusive to the greens. Did he repeat this patern elsewhere?

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Troy, Travis, what great greens
« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2005, 04:30:13 PM »
Steve Curry,

Was the site at Troy a rocky site ?

Are the mounds an efficient disposal feature or a style without related function ?

Geoffrey Childs

Re:Troy, Travis, what great greens
« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2005, 06:42:30 PM »
Great photos Steve. Thanks.

Add Travis to the list of under appreciated architects.  I think he should be up there with the other dead guys we respect so much on this site.

Round Hill Club (edit from Corey - my bad) in Greenwich is another hidden gem to go and visit. North Jersey is quirky but fun and all of them I believe share Travis' ability to pick very natural green sites. I always love the shot into the 13th green at Westchester (#4 tournament). It sits up in a dell that seems perfectly suited to golf.  So many holes on his courses are like that. I've got to get to Hollywood this year.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2005, 09:30:09 AM by Geoffrey Childs »

corey miller

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Troy, Travis, what great greens
« Reply #18 on: May 22, 2005, 06:47:58 PM »


I hope you did not submit a golfweek rating for Rolling Hills in Greenwich.  No wonder the club flies under the radar screen. ;D

ian

Re:Troy, Travis, what great greens
« Reply #19 on: May 24, 2005, 02:05:27 PM »
Mark,

I did not get there, but plan to in the near future. Getting the kids to Howes Caves was a priority over seeing a golf course.
I will plan to meet you there.

Course looks great from the photos and it looks like some of the bunkers are original/or have been recovered by Bruce. Others are typical to Scranton where almost all is lost to committees or maintainance.

Green contours look great even from photo.


Patrick,

Hollywood is very typical of the greens that I have seen. It is the surrounding architecture where he changed styles. Nothing looks like Hollywood (except the old pictures of a course near DC which I can't remember the name. Tom MacWood has some great photos of it.

I will see you at Scranton, I just don't think it will be this year. There is nothing planned, with only the bunkers left to go. Last year was a huge year with irrigation, creek reclaimation and every tee being completed.


Tom,

Yes he did. I have the same features listed on plans at Orchard Park, CC of Scranton, Stafford CC. Patrick may have mentioned this before in another thread, there are examples of these still at Garden City on the 3rd hole. I think Pat called them convex bunkers (?). They some times were mounds with sand flashed in them, but others were intended to act like small dunes. I know of no example that still exisists other than Garden City, and I have not seen a picture of one of these "whins" (as they also have been described).

Great dilema is when you have no photo of these (or the islands of fairway); do you restore to the plan.


In general:

Travis created better greens than any other architect I have seen. I like other architects work better, but I would take his compartmented greens with bathtubs, ridgelines, shelves, fall offs, and large rolls over any architect that ever practiced.

Some may accuse me of a bias, because I work on his courses; but anyone who has seen more than a few of his courses can appreciate the genius to his greens.

Scott Witter

Re:Troy, Travis, what great greens
« Reply #20 on: May 24, 2005, 02:21:13 PM »
Ian,

Based on you recent comment, I'm guessing one of your favorite greens (compartmentalized that is) would be #11 at Stafford CC.  This is without a doubt the most dramatic putting surface I have ever seen and to think they keep it tight like all others that you can reasonably putt.  Not withstanding is the overall great quality of the entire hole #11, wow, what a great par 4.  You must have a long and accurate drive to approach this particular green complex with any level of confidence.

P.S.  went to Howe Caverns many times as a youngster with the family and school trips.  Last trip would have been around 35 years ago.  I'm assuming a lot has changed since then...but not the fun for your kids, hope you enjoyed it too.

ian

Re:Troy, Travis, what great greens
« Reply #21 on: May 24, 2005, 03:07:27 PM »
Scott,

Without a doubt that is one of the best Travis greens I have seen. The key being the open fairway to bounce the ball into the "impossible" front pin location.

The best green is at Penn Hills, just south of the border near Ellicottville. The 7th green has four compartments surrounding the famous central compartment called "the throne" Shortish non descript par four to the most marvolous green contours I have seen. I don't know if it is possible to two putt from the diagonal compartments.

Howe Caverns was a lot of fun, the kids loved the boat trip a lot. I doubt much has changed, except they are opening up another section where you have to do a lot of crawling and where a lighted helmet.

How good is Yahnundasis?

Ian
« Last Edit: May 24, 2005, 07:51:02 PM by Ian Andrew »

Scott Witter

Re:Troy, Travis, what great greens
« Reply #22 on: May 24, 2005, 07:49:15 PM »
Ian,

I have not heard of the "Throne" before, but I am aware of the course and the green of which you speak and it is truly remarkable!  I can certainly say that it would likely not be possible for me to two putt that green from the diagonals!

Yes, the approach to the 11th at Stafford is the key feature that sets up the front pin position, if you can call it one.  What a shame, generally speaking, that we don't have more open approaches such as this one to use the ground game more often.  Travis was quite skillful using this characteristic and I have seen it as a well used, but not overused feature/tool in many of his works.

My folks still live within 5 minutes of the Yahnundasis, I'm embarrassed that you got the spelling wrong...and I got to play it twice last year.  I actually have a history with this club.  This is where my love/passion for the industry started when I was 17 years old, which would be 30 years ago, oh shit wow!  Nevertheless, this was my first job in the industry as an employee on the grounds crew.  For two seasons I worked there and played every Monday and on many afternoons after the members were enjoying drinks in the clubhouse.  The afternoons and twilight just happen to be my favorite time to play.  I learned a lot about that track and about Travis, but I will say that even then the course had been chopped up to construct new surrounding roads and a shopping mall which lies close to the back nine around holes 13-16.  Even so, most of what Travis accomplished was kept generally in tact.

Clearly, the front nine is by far the best of his work and I'm quite sure you would be delighted to see it.  Travis respected everything that many of us on this site find to be precious and important, the existing natural contours.  Some of the fairways have huge hogbacks, buried elephants and swales going this way and that way that are incredible to mow, but oh so interesting to play.  Critically speaking, the course desparately needs to be restored, since over the years much of the character has been lost, you know, rounded greens, bunkers removed, some made shallower, etc.....Currently they have a superintendent William Carrick, yes, that's Carrick! in his second year there, who is very interested to restore the Travis work, but is strapped for money and has too many members who "see" nothing wrong.  I met with him last year and he says he will still continue his fight to bring the course back.

There are several holes that are absolutely marvelous and have Travis dripping all over them.  You would do well to stop in for a visit sometime.  If you are passing through, I would love to take a tour with you.  Utica/New Hartford is 3.5 hours drive fom Lockport.

Steve Curry

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Troy, Travis, what great greens
« Reply #23 on: May 25, 2005, 11:27:21 AM »
Pat,

In talking with Chris Strong, the superintendent I got an answer to your question that the site is not rocky.  I also think it is very important to note that the bunkers are in the process of being renovated/restored and that this is a multi-year project.  Chris thinks the mounds are not for rock disguise and that some of the mounds at Ekwanok may have been for that reason?

Scott,

If you see Will, pass along a hello for me would you?

Steve

T_MacWood

Re:Troy, Travis, what great greens
« Reply #24 on: May 25, 2005, 12:39:04 PM »
"Yes he did. I have the same features listed on plans at Orchard Park, CC of Scranton, Stafford CC. Patrick may have mentioned this before in another thread, there are examples of these still at Garden City on the 3rd hole. I think Pat called them convex bunkers (?). They some times were mounds with sand flashed in them, but others were intended to act like small dunes. I know of no example that still exisists other than Garden City, and I have not seen a picture of one of these "whins" (as they also have been described).

Great dilema is when you have no photo of these (or the islands of fairway); do you restore to the plan."

Ian
I agree, Travis's convex bunkers at GCGC are the only ones he did that I'm aware of...although Hollywood had some bunkers that were kind of similar. The best picutres I've seen of his later moire typical humps and hollows were in that old aerial of Scranton you posted. I believe I've seen pictures of them at Camden and Lakewood as well.