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Matthew Mollica

Square Tees - MacKenzie's lot?
« on: May 13, 2005, 07:34:15 PM »
Many if not most here would like to think of themselves as quite familiar with Dr. Alister MacKenzie's oeuvre.

Was Alister seemingly in favor of square teeing grounds?

What are some of the better examples of this kind of work from the good doctor?

Matthew
« Last Edit: May 13, 2005, 07:34:48 PM by Matthew Mollica »
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"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

Brian Walshe

Re:Square Tees - MacKenzie's lot?
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2005, 12:00:19 AM »
Matty,

I take it this is in relation to the ugly square tee boxes now installed on the 15th of Royal Melbourne East.  

Brian
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Matthew Mollica

Re:Square Tees - MacKenzie's lot?
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2005, 09:24:07 PM »
Yes Brian. You're right.

For those who don't know, the tees at Royal Melbourne are slated for review, and that of the 15th hole on the East course has already had a make-over. It's impeccably square shape has raised some eyebrows.

Maybe this thread should have asked "Did MacKenzie ever build or design a square tee?" as there have been over 100 views, but no-one's given me an example of one.

MM
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"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

Bill_McBride

Re:Square Tees - MacKenzie's lot?
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2005, 09:28:11 PM »
The tees at the Valley Club of Montecito are generally rectangular with generally squarish corners, but they aren't that "square tee" look which I think is exemplified by East Lake among others.
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Matthew Mollica

Re:Square Tees - MacKenzie's lot?
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2005, 09:51:19 PM »
Bill, is the tee shape at The Valley Club generic?

Of all 18, is there much variety?

Of the squarish ones, is their appearance more a product of modern maintenence, course modification since the 30's or have they always been square?

I ask because one could look at Augusta National and incorrectly attrributing symmetrical and highly stylised course modifications to Dr. Alister.

Thanks for the reply.

MM
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"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

Bill_McBride

Re:Square Tees - MacKenzie's lot?
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2005, 10:18:57 PM »
"Generic?"  They are all about the same.

I think they are intended to be that shape and the mowing looks to achieve that aim.  I have no idea what they looked like originally.  Tom Doak had a look at early photos of the course to help with renovation; maybe he'll have a better idea.
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Tom_Doak

Re:Square Tees - MacKenzie's lot?
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2005, 11:39:19 PM »
Dr. MacKenzie never built anything with rectangular corners.  Neither did a lot of the other Golden Age architects, for that matter.
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Mark_Guiniven

Re:Square Tees - MacKenzie's lot?
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2005, 02:50:24 AM »
 Matt,
If you're going to pose the question at all, shouldn't it be "was Russell seemingly in favor of square teeing grounds?" seeing it's his course. What have they always done? What have they always done at Yarra Yarra?

Martin Hawtree has suggested this as a way to keep golf balls out of the neighbouring properties, so maybe the question should be does that work better than free form tees?

Why is Martin Hawtree involved with RM instead of, say, Clayton and Doak?
« Last Edit: May 15, 2005, 08:00:15 AM by Mark Guiniven »
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Matthew Mollica

Re:Square Tees - MacKenzie's lot?
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2005, 07:03:18 AM »
Hi Mark,

I have wanted to gain a greater underdstanding of MacKenzie's past works. My suspicion is that he was never in favor of straight lines. The responses to date confirm my suspicion.

Your point that the East Course could solely be attributed to Russell is a valid one, and one which I'm not disputing. The official explanation for the new tee shape is partly related to safety / boundary issues. The notion that MacKenzie favored 'more robust, rectangular tees' has also been proffered by some.

Mark, your post leads me to expand on thoughts regarding tee shapes, and their effects on aiming, ball trajectory, OOB counts etc.

I wonder if any reliable scientific research has been conducted in times past, with regard to tee shapes and driver dispersion patterns.

Matthew
« Last Edit: May 15, 2005, 07:50:25 AM by Matthew Mollica »
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"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

Bill_McBride

Re:Square Tees - MacKenzie's lot?
« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2005, 07:57:46 PM »
Tom Doak, looking at the photo on pg 17 of Dr "MacKenzie teeing off on the eighteenth at Alwoodley," assuming he designed the course as described in your book, he built at least one with rectangular corners!

Great book!  I'm playing Alwoodley in July and really looking forward to that.  ;D
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Brian Walshe

Re:Square Tees - MacKenzie's lot?
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2005, 04:16:06 AM »
Matty,

Played RME again yesterday and those square tee boxes on 15 are just awful.  Perhaps they are there to distract people from the appalling attempt at a "sandy waste" on the right side with it's "first cut of sand" and straight lines.  You wonder how you can have something as beautiful as the transition from bunker to sandy waste/scrub on the right of the 17th West green and as awful as the right side of 15 East at the same club.  Throw in the "tiered" bunker on 6 East and you have to wonder at the direction RM is headed.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2005, 04:20:47 AM by Brian_Walshe »
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