Did the Arts and Crafts Movement really influence GCA?

[TEPaul]

Patrick:

Precisely! We are not trying to take anything away from many of those at PVGC that had some real input in a number of ways----such people as Street, Carr, Smith, Bole, particularly Govan and obviously many others. We aren't trying to minimize anything they did at all. But in the description of the "Philly School" and who its participants were, we (and GeoffShac) simply limited the members of it that we speak of to those who really were practicing golf architects either at that time or particularly in the future.

I'm sure the reason for that is simply because the courses those five (six if you include Fownes and refer to it as the "Pennsylvania School") are so interesting and impressive. In a real way they are still the heavyweights of great golf architecture----eg PVGC, Shinnecock, Oakmont, Riviera, Bethpage Black, Winged Foot, Merion East.

Street, Heebner and the others did contribute but what golf courses are their names on as the course's architect?

But if Tom MacWood wants to research the soxes off any of those courses and include in the "Philly School" the 100 or 200 people who may've had legitimate input in one way or another, I sure have no problem with that.

"TEPaul,
Weren't you on the design-redesign committee at Gulph Mills?
Shouldn't you and others on the committee be included in the Philadelphia School?"

Yes, I was, and no, I should not be included in the "Philly School", certainly not what I sometimes refer to (and in those articles I wrote) as the "Original" Philly School, not the least reason being I was born about 40 years too late to have any chance to be in that original Philly School of architecture.  And, by the way, as to the quality of any of my architectural concepts, my primary architectural contribution to the project at GMGC is turning out to be a failure and I am now speaking to Gil (who helped me do it---or I should probably say I helped him do it) and the club about how to fix it.

[T_MacWood]

TE and Patrick
Did Fownes design anything or live in Philadelphia?

If you include him, which I would do, you ought to change the name to Pennsylvannia.

[TEPaul]

"TE and Patrick
Did Fownes design anything or live in Philadelphia?
If you include him, which I would do, you ought to change the name to Pennsylvannia."

Tom MacW:

Thanks for the recommendation!

I thougtht you claimed to be a good researcher---guess not. If you bothered to read my articles on the "Original Philadelphia School of Architecture" you would see clearly written in it, probably parenthetically, 'If you expand the number from five to six and include Henry Fownes of Oakmont and Pittsburgh we refer to it as "The Pennsylvania School" '.

But, again, thanks for the recommendation but it appears we already thought of that.  

[T_MacWood]

TE
You're welcome. I read your article "Original Philadelphia School of Architecture", in which included Fownes. I didn't read anything about Pennsylvania. Does 'parenthetically' mean, I meant to and probably should have, but I forgot?

By the way I enjoyed your article.

[TEPaul]

"I didn't read anything about Pennsylvania. Does 'parenthetically' mean, I meant to and probably should have, but I forgot?"

Tom MacW:

Good pick up there! Yes, I guess that's what it does mean. The parenthetic reference I made on here to you about the "Philadelphia School" being altered to be called  the "Pennsyvlania School" if one includes Pittsburgh's Fownes apparently was not in the article I wrote for the "Philadelphia Golfer" about the "Philadelphia School of Architecuture" about two years ago (at least I couldn't find it in the article just now when I scanned it)---it was in the article I wrote on the same subject for the USGA 2005 US Amateur program magazine for Merion. The latter article was basically a chopped in half (they asked me to take it from 3,000 words down to 1,500 words) version of the article I wrote for the "Philadelphia Golfer" in 2003.

"By the way I enjoyed your article."

Thank yu, thank yu, thank yu vury muuuch.

(By the way I just spoke with GeoffShac about this idea of the "Philadelphia School" and about the fact I obviously got the idea from him some years ago and neglected to credit him when I wrote those two articles on the same subject in basically the same way for the "Philadelpia Golfer" first and then for the USGA's program second. Geoff said that was perfectly OK and frankly it was probably a good idea I didn't credit him in the second one for the US Amateur program because if I had he said the USGA might cut the entire article!