Courses to study GCA--Indian Creek is a must!

[mike_malone]

 Just had the good fortune to play here for two days. The wonder of the place is that Flynn had his chance to "create" a golf course from scratch. He created elevation changes, used bunkering very stategically , angled greens to the line of play in a devilish way, raised the greens up to challenge the short game, used many variations of internal movement on the greens, added small mounds throughout.
     A student of GCA could spend days here learning . I say this because one can see how a classic American architect took the "tabla rasa" of a seaside location. Since everything is done from scratch nothing is "working with the land". For someone who greatly admires how Flynn works the land this course is an eyeopener.

     I want to just speak of two holes that were back to back. The par 3 (#12?) is by the water, but it uses it FOR THE WIND not as much for the hazard. We had much difficulty on this hole. The water was left and in back. Originally, the players had a view of the ocean, but development off the property has changed that.

    Then the next hole doglegs left . It is a short 300 ish hole to a well bunkered green that sits some 15 feet off the ground. I have previously posted of my distaste for water parallel to the line of play. This water was the ideal "strategic" idea---cut off as much as you want, but hit it straight and you still get home without dealing with the water.
 Of course, the first day I hit a good drive over the water to 65 yards--couldn't decide how to hit the next shot with the 15-20 mph wind;left it in the front bunker and did not finish the hole(playing stableford). The second day I ballooned my 3-wood to the right-left with 140-nailed a 7 iron into the wind -missed my ten foot birdie.

     The word "subtlety" gets overused but this is its definition.

[Willie_Dow]

Mike
Not having seen Indian Creek, but interested in how Flynn seemed to leave options for additional yardage off the tee at many of the courses around Philly.  Did you notice this possibiliy down there ?  Perhaps it was not an option within the confines of the location.

[TEPaul]

Mike:

As you say, the nice thing about Indian Creek for an architectural student is you don't exactly have to find or imagine what the course pre-construction natural contours or natural grade was because basically the whole island was man-made and obviously originally dead flat---so anything on the course that is elevated Flynn designed and created. I guess, in a way the extent of the construction is a little like Lido. Actually starting from the original man-made island I believe Flynn raised the entire course up something like 2-5 feet on up!

[Adam_Messix]

Tom or Wayne--

I know that presently the 9th and 18th holes are played for the members as a par five and as long par fours on the "William Flynn Course" scorecard.  How did Flynn originally have these holes?  I think on the "Flynn" course, they are both in the 460-465 yard range.  The members play them something in the ballpark of 490-500 yards.  

Mike--

That little 13th hole is a cutie isn't it?  When there's a nice winter wind blowing, that hole can be a bear......It can be as long as a four or five iron approach when the wind's really wipping off the ocean.  Personally though, I think that entire stretch of 9-13 is awesome stuff.  

[TEPaul]

Adam:

That "William Flynn Course" scorecard is the way Flynn originally built the course---and #9 and #18.

[TEPaul]

Mike:

The interesting thing about that 13th hole is a layup drive somewhere out to the right not only is about direction but very much distance too. It's not a good idea to go too far to the far side of the fairway or beyond or you can really get out of angle into that green.

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Indian Creek's angles are so great and 13 is a perfect example. Unless you try to drive the green, this might be a matter of the average player having as good a chance as any to beat the Tiger. That approach is so very difficult the first time around, when you just cannot visualize the size of the green.

When we were down this winter, they were adding a number of tees, only 10-15 yards behind, but on a number of holes.

The old picture of 12 is absolutely incredible, it is too bad the restoration did not take it back to that rugged look, but I am not sure that is where the membership wanted to go.

[mike_malone]

 I forgot to say he also showed how to plant trees for strategic purposes. I think the club ,along with Ron Forse, are beginning to investigate how Flynn intended trees to be used on this course. But, I am confidant that on  at least a few holes he created doglegs through the use of trees.

    Additionally, there are trees there for purely aesthethic reasons. The banyons(sp) were awesome!

[mike_malone]

 My favorite green was a short par four somewhere on the middle of the back nine. The hole was 350ish;the green was angled from left to right going away from the center of the fairway as you went back. The left FRONT was raised up more than the back right. The middle of the green seemed to gently twist as it went back.

     The  touches made to this course would take many trips around to truly appreciate.

     No offense intended, but when Tom Doak does something near to this course in quality then we can start to play with the word "genius".

[mike_malone]

 Just thought of another feature. The raised greens served several purposes. One is to test the short game, both in deception for the approach shot and falloffs for the inevitable pitches back up to the green.

    But they  also created the space for that deep bunkering by the green.

[wsmorrison]

Adam,

Here are the original yardages and pars compared to today's; I like 18 as a par 4 but I think 9 works pretty well as a birdieable par 5.  The climb up to the clubhouse (designed by Maurice Fatio) on 18 is one of the great views in golf.  The photo of this on the scorecard is by none other than that researcher extraordinaire and all-around good guy, Craig Disher.

Hole     Flynn Distance/Par     Today Distance/Par
1         353/4                       353/4                    
2         406/4                       409/4
3         553/5                       549/5
4         353/4                       358/4
5         179/3                       186/3
6         444/4                       445/4
7         344/4                       356/4
8         208/3                       206/3
9         470/4                       519/5
10       417/4                       420/4
11       467/5                       513/5
12       192/3                       184/3
13       326/4                       309/4
14       445/4                       436/4
15       157/3                       162/3
16       362/4                       375/4
17       397/4                       396/4
18       465/4                       486/5

Indian Creek is one of the most special places in all of golf.  It is, as Mike Malone says, a course that all those interested in golf architecture should study in depth.  

It has generous landing areas but you need to be in the right spot.  The approach shots are daunting, even with a wedge.  There's a nice mix of long and short par 4s, the par 3s are excellent individually and as a group and the conditioning is excellent.  Firm and fast is how it is kept and exactly right for the architecture.  Interesting that there are only a few runup shots that make tactical sense.  It is a real test to control distance against and with the wind on aerial shots to the green.  This is a transition design moving strongly towards predominantly aerial shot demands.

You could play here forever and never tire of the beauty and the challenge.

The course is interesting as a blank slate project in a similar vein as Lido and it also may be the first course designed with spectators in mind.  There are a number of precisely placed observation points throughout the golf course.  Odd because the place hardly gets any outside play.  It is a very private club with a gracious membership and an excellent staff including the head pro, Mike Kernicki, superintendent Joe Pantaleo and general manager Michael MacDonald.

[mike_malone]

 Just another example of the lunacy of rankings---middle of the pack for GD  in Fl.---no sign (that I could find) of it on GW classic list. I guess it is another example of an ultra exclusive club that doesn't care about the rankings.



   BTW  I have a new definition  of a  million dollar house-----one that pays that much in PROPERTY TAXES. Although my Quaker sensibilities laughed at the sight of a mail truck delivering on the street---they get their mail just like I do.

[HamiltonBHearst]

TEPaul

Are you writing a book on Flynn with somebody else from this site?  Did Ron Forse talk with you to learn more about Flynn at Indian Creek?

[JSlonis]

My favorite green was a short par four somewhere on the middle of the back nine. The hole was 350ish;the green was angled from left to right going away from the center of the fairway as you went back. The left FRONT was raised up more than the back right. The middle of the green seemed to gently twist as it went back.
     

You are probably talking about the 16th green.  It is a great design.  There are so many great hole locations on that green...you could've played there all week and not saw them all.

[wsmorrison]

Jamie,

Isn't the visual deception off the tee amazing on that hole?  I'd love to have a photograph of it for the Flynn book, but I don't think any would do it justice.  I hope I can capture the nature of his design and the atmosphere of the club for the book.  That 16th green complex is amazing but so are the other 17.  

I get the general feeling of hitting an approach to the 11th at Merion on nearly every hole because there is trouble lurking all around and big numbers can happen with the slightest errors.  The falloffs and grass heights combine to make shot requirements we see too little.  One of the caddies told me a lot of the members use wedges with very little bounce for shots around the greens.  That makes good sense to me.

You're so right about different hole locations causing such a difference in how to play the hole, all the way back to the tee shot.  Great stuff!

Indian Creek was a blank slate that became a masterpiece in design.  

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