News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.

Pages: [1]   Go Down

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
The great Disappearing courses
« on: April 29, 2005, 01:14:24 PM »
Upon further investigation, the inputting of the state lists into my all-inclusive spreadsheet of lists, the latest Golf Digest state-by-state rankings has left me even more perplexed than ever.

Besides the vast movement of some excellent course downwards, which, undoubtedly, has bothered me, there is something more that has been exposed.

It can't just be the drop of 'tradition' as a category, because the phenomenon I am about to expose has existed on past lists.

By no means is this analysis complete, as I have only checked on five states, but they are states I am very familiar with.



My analysis begins with the phenomenon that Olympia Fields South was not on the 2003 list, but, miraculously pops up at #7 in the state in 2005.  

There has been chatter about restoring the course, but nothing significant was changed there in recent memory, and, certainly, not between 2003 and 2005, that would cause a course to pop at least 18 spots (not in top 25 in 2003 to #7 in 2005).

Fact:  for some reason, OFCC-S 'disappeared' off the list in 2003.

Where did it go?

Was this a 'one-time' deal?

Did something happen to the course to make it 'drop'?

Did it not have enough ratings over the previous ten years to warrant a spot?



So I did a bit of investigating and found, at least   examples of this 'disappearing' act on the state-by-state lists.


Perhaps someone can help explain how this happens?


GOLF DIGEST - STATE LISTS                              
         first "X" GD                     
            lists      1995   1997   1999   2001   2003   2005
Illinois                              
Olympia Fields South                   17   15   10      left off   7
North Shore         first ten      7   12   17   13      left off   19

Michigan                              
CC of Detroit         first fourteen      7   10   14   12   13      left off

Massachusetts                              
New Seabury Resort (Blue)         first ten      5   7   5   7   4      left off
Essex CC                     15   15      left off   12
Hyannisport CC                  9   9     left off   9   9

Ohio                              
Brookside - Canton               10         10      left off   10
Wedgewood                     24      left off   23   19
Sharon         first one      13   14   11   11      left off      left off

Wisconsin                              
Lawsonia - Links                     10   10   6      left off
University Ridge                  7   9   5     left off   5
Logged
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The great Disappearing courses
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2005, 01:40:53 PM »
The spreadsheet had a hard time 'translating' to this thread, so I redid it and just left the year-by-year rankings on each state's list for easier analysis:

           1995   1997   1999   2001     2003   2005
Illinois                     
Olympia Fields South    17   15   10      left off   7
North Shore      7   12   17   13      left off   19
                     
Michigan                     
CC of Detroit   7   10   14   12       13           left off
                     
Massachusetts                     
New Seabury Resort (Blue)7   5   7      4            left off
Essex CC            15   15      left off   12
Hyannisport CC         9   9      left off    9   9
                     
Ohio                     
Brookside(Canton)   10         10      left off   10
Wedgewood            24   left off        23            19
Sharon      13   14   11   11      left off   left off
                     
Wisconsin                     
Lawsonia - Links         10   10       6            left off
University Ridge      7   9   5     left off       5
Logged
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The great Disappearing courses
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2005, 02:14:44 PM »
Just came across perhaps the strangest 'disappearing' act yet:


Missouri
                                                        97   99  01    03      05
CC of St. Albans (Tavern Crek)   3    3    4    left off    1  


How can a course consistently ranked as the best in the state be "left off" in 2003?

The third or fourth ranked course for 3 lists in a row, and, now the top-ranked in Missouri, and somehow it was 'forgotten' in 2003?

How does this happen?

« Last Edit: April 29, 2005, 02:17:34 PM by Paul Richards »
Logged
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The great Disappearing courses
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2005, 02:19:36 PM »
Paul,

Ron Whitten has told me that some courses don't get enough raters to qualify. While they can use old ratings, they zero out the maintenance number for those, dragging down the entire points system.

That happened to our first course at Giants Ridge.  3rd in State (probalby a little high, pumped up as most new courses are from the best new rankers) to off the list in 2003, to back on in 2005 after more folks came back up to see the Quarry for the Best New.

BTW, playing with the new Google Maps.  If you search the satellite photos for Biwabik, MN you can view both courses.....

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=biwabik,+MN&ll=47.542927,-92.292881&spn=0.009356,0.015385&t=k&hl=en
« Last Edit: April 29, 2005, 02:20:33 PM by Jeff_Brauer »
Logged
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

TEPaul

Re:The great Disappearing courses
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2005, 02:20:52 PM »
"Treat your caddie as you would your daughter AND son."

Jeez Paul, I never noticed that remark on your posts before. I've always been a whole lot more respectful of caddies than that! I've tried to live my life as best as I can to truly adhere to W.C. Fields's dictate that any man who hates little children and small dogs can't be all bad!
Logged

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The great Disappearing courses
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2005, 02:55:08 PM »
Tom


It's a play on what is written on the Beverly scorecard:

"Treat your caddie as you would your son or daughter."


Since we now have a daughter and our new son, I decided to change the logo here to reflect that fact.

 ;) ;)


Not sure when the slogan was put on the Beverly card originally, but I know that when I was growing up there caddying, there were a few members who did treat us caddies as bad as their dogs!!

« Last Edit: April 29, 2005, 02:56:25 PM by Paul Richards »
Logged
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The great Disappearing courses
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2005, 02:57:29 PM »
Jeff

>Ron Whitten has told me that some courses don't get enough raters to qualify. While they can use old ratings, they zero out the maintenance number for those, dragging down the entire points system.


I do understand that.

However, that doesn't answer my question, in so many of these cases cited, since there are new and old courses included.

There must be another answer....
 ???
Logged
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The great Disappearing courses
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2005, 03:20:50 PM »
Paul,

Either a relatively new or old course might not get raters.

Lets assume St. Albans had a 90 out of 100 points in 2001, and 9 (out of 10) of those were for maintenance conditions.  If in 2003) no one rated it, it would lose all 9 of those points, dropping its overall points to 81, which might be enough to take it out of the rankings.

Ron W then notices, goads raters into going back, or the  the "offended" course ups maintenance levels, service, design, and efforts to get raters, then when raters get back in 2005, it's "Better than ever," and raters give it back at least nine maintenance points, and perhaps up a few other ratings on overall favorable impression.  Points gos from 90 to 93 or so, enough to move it from its former third to first.

Same process could happen to an old course that didn't get many raters, or that underwent a complete renovation, and so understandably had no raters for a two year period.
Logged
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The great Disappearing courses
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2005, 03:30:44 PM »
Jeff -

Thanks for the research. Maybe these guys will start leaving the GD raters alone now. ;D
Logged
Mr Hurricane

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The great Disappearing courses
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2005, 03:36:41 PM »
Jeff

Thanks.

That's as good of an explanation as I've heard.

Maybe this does lend credence to Matt Ward's theory of 'cherry-picking' the top new courses??

Logged
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The great Disappearing courses
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2005, 05:15:57 PM »
Paul,

If I had read the dozens of pages of arguments about the GD rankings, including Matt's insistence on using only a few qualified raters (which I disagree with) it might.  Then again, I just don't know and don't want to!

I suspect that any system of ratings has its problems, and that changing them to eliminate one problem for one person leads to another problem for another person (or course, like Cog Hill)

It is what it is.  A fun magazine article created ONLY to sell magazines by providing entertaining reading.
Logged
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The great Disappearing courses
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2005, 09:49:00 PM »
Jeff:


You're right:


>It is what it is.  A fun magazine article created ONLY to sell magazines by providing entertaining reading.



You make a great point here.


However, as I mentioned previously, I have assembled a spreadsheet of every list of every publication that I have come across.  The biggest group on my spreadsheet is from Golf Digest.  It saddens me to 'discover' that there are great big gaping holes in what is supposed to be the 'industry standard' and 'market leader.'


In my eyes, as someone who has been a Golf Digest fan since I first swung a club as a young caddy at Beverly, I have painfully discovered that the there is no 'wizard' - it's just a man behind a curtain.



Unfortunately, that discovery can't help but make one lose faith in an institution that one has respected for so long.



Logged
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The great Disappearing courses
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2005, 02:48:12 PM »
>In my eyes, as someone who has been a Golf Digest fan since I first swung a club as a young caddy at Beverly, I have painfully discovered that the there is no 'wizard' - it's just a man behind a curtain.


For the record, I have been informed by a friend that this will be construed as a personal slam against Ron Whitten.  It is most definately NOT aimed at Ron, whom I befriended and have the utmost respect for.

It is meant as a criticism not of the person, but of the system that allows these obvious oversights to occur.  It is leveled against Golf Digest, not any individual.

My point of all this is that there is a disconnect in the system and I am hopeful that GD gets its act together to address these inconsistencies before the 2007 list comes out.

Hopefully, it won't be a case of the 'emporer having no clothes' once again.

 ;)
Logged
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The great Disappearing courses
« Reply #13 on: May 01, 2005, 03:02:09 PM »
Paraphrased below are examples of some of the comments I have received on this post:


>Golf Digest is suffering from the standpoint of consistency -- which is clearly evident from this years results.

>They will likely continue on their merry way as their credibility wanes.  

>Frankly, I think Ron Whitten is simply shaking his head at the "collective wisdom" of their panel.




 :-[
Logged
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The great Disappearing courses
« Reply #14 on: May 01, 2005, 08:53:42 PM »
See my new thread, "Westchester - West VS. Oak Hill - West"
but Westchester - West dropped from 15th to off the list, after having finished 13, 13, 13, and 14th on the last five lists ....

 :-[ :-[ :P
Logged
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The great Disappearing courses
« Reply #15 on: May 02, 2005, 10:00:33 PM »
Boy, talk about no love!


Finally got down to Pennsylvania, a state in which I know the top golf courses well.


Rolling Green:

Finishes, 13th in 1995, 9th in 1997, 7th in 1999, 8th in 2001 and even 9th in 2003 in the state rankings.


Guess where they end up in 2005?????


OUT OF THE TOP 25!!!!!




ugh.





Just to confirm where we are headed with this,
Glenmaura National;

11th in 1997, 13th in 1999, 19th in 2001 - left off in 2003 - suddenly REAPPEARS in 2005 at 20th - like it never skipped a beat.


So where did it go in 2001????


Inquiring minds would like to know.............


 
Logged
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The great Disappearing courses
« Reply #16 on: May 05, 2005, 02:18:32 PM »
My survey yields a few more inexplicable omissions. :-[


Wild Dunes, #7 in state in 2001 and #16 in state in 2003, falls off the top 25 in state in 2005.

This course had been a top 100 in the country course in the last decade.   :-[


Even worse - Tanglewood GC (Championship) - #9 in state in 2001, and #8 in 2003 - falls from top 25 in 2005.  In 2003, it was also the 65th best public-access course in the country by GD, and falls off that list completely in 2005.

 ::) :P :-[ :'(
Logged
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The great Disappearing courses
« Reply #17 on: May 05, 2005, 04:01:27 PM »
How about in MA, where I believe that Winchester went from # 4 to out of the top 15.  

Many who have played it think it is superior to Salem.
Logged

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The great Disappearing courses
« Reply #18 on: May 05, 2005, 10:50:51 PM »
Sean

Winchester was #11 in 1999 and 2001, but fell off in 2003 and didn't make the comeback for 2005 either.

Logged
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The great Disappearing courses
« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2005, 06:37:58 AM »
It was pointed out to me by private message that Northland CC in Duluth was a candidate for this thread.


Northland was 5th in state in 1995, 4th in 1997, 5th in 1999, 5th in 2001 - disappeared completely in 2003 - and then miraculously reappeared in 2005 at #7.

Why the hiatus?

 :-[ :-[ ???
Logged
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The great Disappearing courses
« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2005, 08:37:42 AM »
Quote from: Paul Richards on May 06, 2005, 06:37:58 AM
It was pointed out to me by private message that Northland CC in Duluth was a candidate for this thread.


Northland was 5th in state in 1995, 4th in 1997, 5th in 1999, 5th in 2001 - disappeared completely in 2003 - and then miraculously reappeared in 2005 at #7.

Why the hiatus?

 :-[ :-[ ???

Northland was undergoing a renovation during that period and was closed.  It either didn't get enough votes since no one played, or everyone wanted to wait until the renovations were complete to see if it changed status.......
Logged
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

tlavin

Re:The great Disappearing courses
« Reply #21 on: May 06, 2005, 09:17:10 AM »
Oh, c'mon Paul, let's not be naive.  You live in one of the most political cities in America.

The answer is politics, politics, politics.  
« Last Edit: May 06, 2005, 09:18:19 AM by tlavin »
Logged

Jeff Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The great Disappearing courses
« Reply #22 on: May 06, 2005, 06:06:07 PM »
Paul,

The same thing has happened here at The Minikahda Club.  We were once 4th in the State, last year we were at 16, I believe and this year we were dropped.  No raters have been on the course for the past 2 or 3 years.  I am sure that has made an impact.  After a major restoration this should not have happened , but it has.

Jeff
Logged
Jeff Johnson

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The great Disappearing courses
« Reply #23 on: May 06, 2005, 06:52:57 PM »
Jeff

Thanks for the info.

I have played Minikahda before the restoration, visited during the project, and have played the completed course.

It is a real treat.  You should be proud of the work that the club and Ron have done for you there.

Hopefully, the Raters will return it to its proper spot up near the top of the courses in the state of Minnesota!


For the record, Minikahda was 7th in 1995, 6th in 1997, 9th in 1999, 6th again in 2001, dropped to 20th by 2003 and fell off the list completely on the 2005 edition.
 :-[
Logged
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG
Pages: [1]   Go Up