What's the greatest hole in the world?

[The Donald]

May of my golf holes, the waterfall hole at Trump National, the waterfall hole at my new course in New Jersey and the most expensive hole ever built in California. They are the best of the best, can't wait till they are tested in a major.

[yogi_barry]

The greatest may have been at once conceived but never come to reality...  The PAR FOUR #16 at Cypress Point...?  Would it have been a better par 4?  Have a go at the green - are you nuts...?

[ForkaB]

Mr. Barry

Of course you go for the green on the 16th.  In fact that is its weakness.  It is just a cut driver/2 putt or a thinned 4-wood/4-putt, day after day, year after year, depending on the wind, of course.  Nice views, though.

Mr. Huntley

I haven't played Victoria Falls.  Is it that Fazio design in Kentucky, or somewhere similar.  Is the Waterfall Hole there as great as the one at Trump National?

[yogi_barry]

I meant, as a par 4 with the tees further back as I understand was originally contemplated...  Super heroic carry to the green, or "safer" play to the left - leaving a spooky pitch...  

It's tough to narrow it down - if it's golf, I love em all.

[Mike_Sweeney]

For me, the greatest hole is the first hole on a golf trip with the boys after traveling on a long plane trip. You dream for months in the snow of NY, start hitting balls in March and finally it comes in the summer. In the last two years that has meant the first hole at Sand Hills and Enniscrone in Ireland. Both are very good golf holes too. This year I would really like to play that first hole at Dornoch, I just have to juggle that kids, wife, work schedule a little better.

[redanman]

The hole I last played.  And birdied.  Or eagled.

Tough call.

I obviously love the redan, especially at NGLA.  I love the Alps at NGLA better.  Yes Mr Huckaby, I love the Sahara as well.  And Valley.  Obviously that start is so wonderful, none can count!

I'll never forget the second at Royal Aberdeen.

On and on.

But the Greatest?

I'm still looking.

[Paul P]

From what I've seen, the 11th in Ballybunion, the 17th in St Andrews, 17th Rosses Point, 13th Druids Glenn, 9th Turnberry...

[Ronan_Branigan]

Possibly not the greatest yet but I think that #6 at Kingsbarns in Scotland is heading in that direction:

According to George Thomas, ‘The spirit of golf is to dare a hazard, and by negotiating it reap a reward, while he who fears or declines the issue of carry, has a longer or harder shot for their next’. This philosophy is evident at the sixth hole at Kingsbarns golf club. The diagonal fairway bunkers force the player to make a decision on the tee. Do they dare to take on the heroic carry and have a chance of getting a favourable kick onto the short 337 yard Par 4 or do they lay up to the left of the bunkers off the tee and face a short but challenging approach shot to a green that slopes from front to back and gathers into a small but deep bunker? A truly strategic hole that, in the true spirit of links golf changes from day to depending on the wind direction.

[THuckaby2]

Tom- You're the only one who I can't quite make out what your prefernces are. Maybe if I knew the 2nd at NGLA, but even then I doubt it. I do have one question though, When you play poker do you like almost every hand, too? If so I suggest a game soon.

Adam - hey, I just mentioned a few holes that I think qualify for a best in the world, that's all.  My preferences change based on my whims.  I do love #2 at NGLA, though, and as of this second it's my favorite hole on that course.  Ask me tomorrow though and it might be #3.  Or #4. Or #8.  Or #17.  Or #16.  Or #14.  Or #1.   Those who know the course can see the trend here, in any case... including #2, six out the eight holes I mention from NGLA are shortish par 4's - the other is Alps, which may well be the greatest "longish" par 4 in the world (yes, I include the Road Hole in this) and the other is the world's best Redan.

As for poker, I avoid such pursuits - for obvious reasons!

TH

[Forrest Richardson]

I checked with the Golf Gods and it is still No. 16 at Cypress Point Club.

[THuckaby2]

And just to confuse my friend Adam even more, I can certainly live with the gods' assessment, Forrest.  

TH

[TEPaul]

Another entry from me, at least on paper (because essentially that's about all it ever was), would have to be MacKenzie's prize winning Country Life Contest hole that apparently got built in some narrowed form at Lido.

What a hole that one appears it would have been. Do you realize that with all that was going on on that hole, particularly in the hole's mid-body that it was approximately 200 yards WIDE!

I love that width, perhaps one of golf architecture's biggest luxuries, but even MacDonald's description of it (and his adaptation of it at Lido) was that it was far too luxuriously wide to do as drawn!

[Tim Weiman]

What exactly does it mean for a golf hole to be the greatest in the world?

If it means "the one hole you would like to play well", then my choice would be a short par five, #17 on the Cashen course at Ballybunion.

Key elements are:

Very demanding drive that forces you to think about wind and shot placement.

A choice whether to go for the green or layup.

Potential disaster and/or tricky recovery shots if you miss.

No simple par even if you play the hole conservatively.

A very dramatic green complex right by the sea.

A nice view of horses on the beach or people playing the nearby 11th hole.

[Jim_H]

To those of you who said #16 at CPC--
There is a great story from a few years ago (perhaps hypocriful, and maybe with a few details wrong).  The SF Chronicle called Sandy Tatum (the former USGA Pres and a CPC member) and said that in their balloting for the best golf holes in Calif., they had a tie for the best Par 3, and they wanted him to break the tie.  He said that he could guess the two holes were #15 and #16 at CPC, and he would take #15 as the best.  They confirmed that he was right in his guess.

[ForkaB]

Mr. H

This is not at all surprising, as Mr. Tatum probably couldn't make the carry on 16 over the past few years.

[THuckaby2]

Hmmmm... I saw Mr. Tatum play about a year ago at SFGC... At least then, even at his advanced age, I'd take him making the carry on 16 given favorable conditions.  He did blow the ball past where I had hit mine on the one hole on which we let them play through...  

TH

[Forrest Richardson]

"Accuracy, carry and [THEN] length" according to Flynn. What makes 16th superior is that it involves all three, both in the order Flynn suggests, and also in the order a great golf hole will suggest. Fifteen is a great hole, but I doubt the Golf Gods would go so far as No. 2 in the world. I'll ask them this afternoon when I arrive for a hearing on a matter involving green sizes. Until then.

[redanman]

I checked with the Golf Gods and it is still No. 16 at Cypress Point Club.

Since I get soundly beaten (regularly!) for trashing my former home, California, I may as well trash #16 CPC.

Thusly:
I find it hard to support a one-shotter which basically has one way to play it as a one-shotter (i.e. forced carry).  It is beautifully situated, replete with fog, cypress trees and all the rest which make CA so over-rated  , (CPC #15 may be an even prettier setting) but a multi-shotter is easier to defend.  

Also, I am not proffering a particular hole as holes are like courses, personal taste.  But I do really like the Alps at NGLA, a beautiful redhead.

[Forrest Richardson]

Redanman -- I thought it was, as you said "The hole I last played. And birdied. Or eagled." -- or that you "were still looking..." Very nice thoughts.

However, the 16th at Cypress Point Club is still better than those...so far as we know. No. 16 at CPC is neither a one-shotter or two-shotter, but rather both wrapped into one at the player's choice. It is heroic, penal, detour and lay-up all in one package. A rare bird. It also occupies a spot on earth that cannot be duplicated, even by Micheal Eisner.

Par has nothing to do with determining this pseudo award. Par being a rather new condition that golf would be well without. Par matters not.

[Mitch Hantman]

How about #14 at Maidstone?  #9 or #10 at Shinnecock?  #5 at Pine Valley
as the 2nd best par 3?  #8 at Troon?  

[Doug Siebert]

Yard for yard, there's no way anyone can come up with a better hole than the Postage Stamp.  If I measure it by what hole would I want to play if I could only play one hole over and over again for the rest of my life, I'd be hard pressed to top the Road Hole (no matter what is done to the bunker)  It can play so many ways depending on conditions, and even in perfect weather it is demanding enough that you might have a half dozen strategies for how to play it depending on how good of a game you brought with you that day.  You'll use pretty much every club in your bag on it, something I'd view as a requirement if I was limited to a single hole.

[D. Beeman]

How come no one has nominated #17 at TPC???   Hmmm???

[Matthew Mollica]

There's a few holes which have been listed repeatedly -

#16 Cypress
#17 St Andrew's Old
#8 Pebble

Some have been mentioned in only one posting. I especially agree that #9 at Turnberry is a terrific hole, as is #13 ANGC.

It seems pretty clear to me that I must also take a flight from Melbourne - direct to NGLA as soon as humanly possible.


Where does #6 Royal Melbourne West and sit in all this ?


Of all the holes proposed, and the discussion therein, the strategic aspects, and aesthetic value, as well as the quirky seem to surface repeatedly as important considerations in judging. The demand for great thought, and great shotmaking, in a beautiful setting...  

How important are the historical aspects of a hole ? By that, I mean, the part a hole has played in a major Championship, or what special moments is has played host to in the past ??

Matthew

[redanman]

Forrest

As a two shotter #16 CPC does little for me except the aesthetics (The California effect) to qualify it as the best in the world.

One of the lovely spots on earth, but to me aesthetics do not make a hole several of orders of magnitude better.

You haven't heard me about PBG(not)L yet, and I'll spare the keystrokes.  Try the search feature.

And I am still searching.

[ChipOat]

So many to consider.

Sean Berry beat me to it (I'm working too hard these days).

#6 at The Creek.  Superb risk/reward strategy off the tee which works as well as it does because of the equally sublime angle and design of the green complex.  Add the view on a sunny day and.....oh my!

Surprised #2 is the only hole at Pine Valley to get a vote.  #'s 8, 13 and 15 would be on my short list 24/7.  Many others also rave about #'s 5 and 10.