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GeoffreyC

Re: Restoration: Bunk or not?
« Reply #75 on: June 09, 2003, 08:59:47 AM »
Forrest

My Model T analogy was a direct reply to Brian's post where he answered my question with

"Geoffrey,

If as a mechanic you were asked to fix an old car that looked tatty and you knew or thought you could make it look better would you not attempt to do it?  The problem with many of the human race especially us architects is that we sometimes have too much confidence in our own work."

To answer your questions (Are you for keeping it the way it is because it exists as it is now — during your generation here on earth? Or, do you think the current evolution is the very best it has ever been — and it would not be better to go back to another point in time and change it back? And, finally, if you do believe it has never, ever been altered, explain how you have come to this belief.)


I used Myopia as an example because it is as much a museum piece as any course I can think of un the USA. Hopefully it can show us how perhaps the best course of its time over 100 years ago looked and hopefully a bit like how it played. I'd certainly be in favor of keeping it as representitive of that state as possible. I'm not the one to decide whether that's from today, 1930 or 1898. We could be talking about Merion, Riviera, Yale, Fenway, Plainfield, Aronomink, Cypress Point or many others with equal merit.


I believe that Myopia has a couple of new greens (built by Cornish, Mungeen and Silva I think) that look very complex, modern and out of place with the others on the course. I don't know why they were built.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ForkaB

Re: Restoration: Bunk or not?
« Reply #76 on: June 09, 2003, 09:30:43 AM »
Can I bring back that favo(u)rite of my words--palimpsest?

Myopia, which I have played a few times, many years ago, is a fine "museum piece" as Geoff notes.  It is also, as is every golf course--the good the bad and the ugly--unique.  This is due to its landform which can never be re-created by man, regardless of what laser measurement and terraforming tricks one can think of.  As far as I know, making any significant changes to geomorphology is beyond the human ken, at least for now.  Even if you could find a similar landform somewhere else in the world, it would not be South Hamilton, with all the ancillary historical interest (most of which is not related to golf) and cachet.....

In the early days of civilisation great pieces of writing media were as scarce as were hen's teeth (until very recently--genetic engineers have found ways to grow them) and as today are landforms such as the one on which Myopia has been built (and possibly "improved" as Geoff bruits above).  So, the ancient scribes "wrote over" old documents when they thought they had something more interesting or useful to say.  They called these "improved/restored" media/documents "palimpsests."

So.......why not consider the landform of Myopia and its environs (or any other course) as a palimpsest upon which some contemporary architect could overwrite an even more interesting venue (and in the long run, perhaps one even more influential to the development of golf and GCA).

Isn't that what has been done to Shinnecock and TOC and Dornoch and many others?  Where would we be today if those courses has been "preserved" the way they were in their early days, or even "restored" to those "primitive" routings?  Very much the poorer, I would say.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

GeoffreyC

Re: Restoration: Bunk or not?
« Reply #77 on: June 09, 2003, 09:42:45 AM »
Rich

So if the membership at Dornoch voted tomorrow that they wanted their (YOUR) course improved AGAIN (after all it has been a long time since the last improvement) and interviewed Forrest Richardson, Brian Phillips and Tom Fazio for the job, you would not protest?   ;D

If we discovered the Raynor routing of Cypress Point tomorrow and some in the membership liked it better and wanted it built would that be OK with you?  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:06 PM by -1 »

ForkaB

Re: Restoration: Bunk or not?
« Reply #78 on: June 09, 2003, 09:55:18 AM »
Geoff

Vis a vis your Dornoch hyoptheitical, what I would not do is a knee-jerk protest against change qua change.  I'd listen to the arguments pro and con (and perhaps even develop some myself) and then decide what to do.  I might support it, I might try to fight it.  Who knows?

Vis a vis Cypress, if the members wanted to go back to the old Raynor plans, it would be their right, and they might, just might, end up with a "better" golf course.  Nobody could build a dog on that landform.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

T_MacWood

Re: Restoration: Bunk or not?
« Reply #79 on: June 09, 2003, 10:18:45 AM »
Brian
The bunker restoration work at CPC is 'futile and pointless' because your definition of restoration is so narrow and rigid (every blade of grass, every tree, every bush, every leaf, every centimeter of the bunkers must be absolutely identical) that it is impossible to achieve or is it 'futile and pointless' because even a close replication is a negative result in your opinion?

I'm aware of the evolution of the bunkers at the Old course, Colt's redesign of Muirfield originally had bunkers in the County Down mold. I'm not interested in restoring the Old course, I'm not aware of anyone calling for the Old course be restored to 1900.

Forrest
What is your definition of 'restoration'? And what are some of the better restorations you have done or seen?

It appears to me this argument may be nothing more that disagreement over the definition of the word - if so this discussion has been 'futile and pointless.'

Your view on CPC is another example of your desire to look at this process in terms of absolutes. Because the dunes have moved/changed and trees have grown (encroaching into playing areas), does not IMO prevent the club from recapturing lost green space or restoring bunkers. Are you saying that its an all or nothing proposition? I have no problem if CPC restores the bunkers today (and does it slowly and deliberately in-house) and then perhaps looks at the trees at a later time. The trees should (and can be)addressed. I'm not sure anyone would be interested in altering the dunes...in fact other than additional grass and ice plant the dunes don't appear to have changed too much.

Interesting story about Oakmont. How would you feel if the club now restores the 8th green to Fownes' orginal vision? I'm sure Fownes was spinning in his grave when Snyder made the course more playable.

 I'm not surprised the architects didn't know the history of Oakmont...from what I know, few architects have the time or inclination to do extensive research on a given course. If I'm not mistaken you have requested and received help researching a golf course--I give you credit for asking for help. You are trying to get the info. Like architects club historians knowing the architectural history of their golf course is definitely hit or miss. Are you saying that because some architects or club historians don't know the facts that we should never restore a golf course?

I'm not sure I follow your concern about our brothers in 2042. We shouldn't restore CPC in 2003 because - not being a perfect replication - a very close approximation might confuse and mislead some poor slob in 2042. Interesting logic. I say if some guy is confused in 2042....oh well.

The history of many important designs is quite diverse. Dornoch went through many improvements...one of the most important occurring in 1946. CPC and Bel-Air were spectacular the day they opened. Muirfield was completely redesigned by Colt...the original course was not too well thought of. Pebble Beach was redesigned by Fowler, MacKenzie and Egan. Macdonald was often improving the NGLA, same with Ross at #2. Timber Point's high point was likely near opening day, it was resigned with a new nine in the 1970's. Sea Island was one of Alison's best designs, Fazio completely redesigned it a few years ago. Garden City was redesigned by Travis, Tillinghast and Emmet also made changes, RTJ redesigned the 12th which is now considered out of place.

Because a course was improved at different points in time, does not mean athat every course are potential canidates for improvement. And just because a course has been improved - like Dornoch, #2 or Oakmont - should have no effect on whether the course is a canidate for restoration. They are seperate issues.
 
Each course has a different design story - their architectural high points vary - it might be 1926 or 1952 or today (or tomorrow). Evaluating the appropriateness, scope or feasibility of a restoration varies from course to course. For that reason asking the question if restoration is bunk or not is not something that can be (or should be) answered universally...each situation is unique and should be evaluated individually.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:06 PM by -1 »

GeoffreyC

Re: Restoration: Bunk or not?
« Reply #80 on: June 09, 2003, 10:47:16 AM »
Good stuff Tom M

BTW- Those last two sentences from your last post I think highlights our differences over Bethpage.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ForkaB

Re: Restoration: Bunk or not?
« Reply #81 on: June 09, 2003, 11:02:40 AM »
Tom

Good post.  I think you are closer to Forrest that you might want to admit.  I hear you saying vis a vis the preservation/restoration/improvement argument "It depends."  I fully agree.  You seem very willing to acknowledge that the improvements made to Muirfield and Shinnecock were steps forward in the profession of GCA, despite the fact that both venues had significant historical importance when they were completely overhauled in the 20's and 30's.  If this is the case, why object out of hand any attempt by a membership, assisted by a modern-day Colt or Flynn, to improve CPC or NGLA or even Dornoch?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

T_MacWood

Re: Restoration: Bunk or not?
« Reply #82 on: June 09, 2003, 03:33:38 PM »
Rich
Yes both Shinnecock and Muirfield were historical courses, but the difference in my mind is that neither was considered very good golf course.

Muirfield had been criticized from the beginning when they moved from Musselburgh. It was basically a flattish inland course surrounded by walls on all sides. They had some unutilized dune country to the north. And golf architecture was at its zenith. The old course was the product of an acknowledged poor era.

Shinnecock had been a hodge podge from the 1890's. And really hadn't been considered a championship course for decades (if it ever was).  Even after Raynor and Macdoanld renovated it, it was still very short and awkward. I think it was Darwin or Hutchinson who described it as feminin. Plus a new highway forced their hand.

The courses that were lost were not of architectural significance. The new courses have been recognized as great designs for seventy years and have remained basically unalterd throughout that period. Some have the opinion that these courses are the very best designs of Colt and Flynn respectfully.

When a course is recognized as both a superior work of architecture and a historically significant example of golf design - I don't believe they should be 'improved' even if there is chance they actually might be improved (because  odds are there couldn't be).
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:06 PM by -1 »

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Restoration: Bunk or not?
« Reply #83 on: June 09, 2003, 04:33:27 PM »
Great posts Tom. And I agree with your gist.

The problem is that as long as historically significant courses like Muirfield and Shinnie hold major tournaments, it will be a losing battle to immunize them from "improvements".

NGLA or Prestwick on the other hand....

Bob

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Restoration: Bunk or not?
« Reply #84 on: June 09, 2003, 05:37:54 PM »
Tom McW,

I owe you a definition of "Golf Course Restoration" from a few posts ago. Sorry, I've been out.

I've never seen one because I am of the belief that you cannot restore a golf course. You may be able to restore part of one or a detail, or even a part of one or a detail to a particular point in its past.

Only with LIDAR technology could we hope to restore one of our existing courses today — at some point in the future. But even so, we would miss things to be sure.

I would define "Golf Course Restoration" as:

Work undertaken to a golf course to put the whole of its parts back into a physical condition, state and relation as they existing at a particular point in time.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Restoration: Bunk or not?
« Reply #85 on: June 09, 2003, 07:18:35 PM »
BCrosby,

My observation/s with regard to this site is/are that a change, restoration, alteration, renovation or modernization is all too often viewed and judged by who did the work, rather than the work itself.

You mentioned NGLA.  If changes to NGLA are perceived to be Karl Olson's work they are applauded, irrespective of the work, and if the changes are perceived to be Rees's work, they are panned, irrespective of the work.

Just look at the moving of the 1st tee and the absence of criticism.

Brian Phillips is correct in another context.

In addition to the physical difficulties, if not impossibilities, there is the political difficulty.

There seems to be a false notion of unanimity amongst committee, board and club members when it comes to a restoration.

It's a rare situation when committee, board and club members are in perfect harmony with respect to a restoration project.  Even if the process begins in total harmony, somewhere along the line, discord will emerge with respect to specific features.  
Each member will have their own ideas with respect to preserving, or eliminating non-original features.  And the final product is usually a political compromise.  That's why I like knowledgeable dictators.

Restoration, or whatever you choose to call the project, is far more complex then some would have you believe.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Restoration: Bunk or not?
« Reply #86 on: June 09, 2003, 07:38:51 PM »
I am posting some writing here from the Merion thread because Ian told me it was good — if you have read it, go on.

- - -

If I was to guess, which I will, the current (golf) generation is in love with an ideal that there are some great things to behold and preserve — and also not a lot to love about many of the courses we've created in recent times (past 40 years). Nothing too surprising. Is this a smart generation? Probably not. It is polarized: On one end are the "don't touch a thing" folks, and on the other are the "I don't have a clue" folks. When, in reality, the issue is not about either, nor anywhere in between.
It is (or should be) about creating terrific and fun golf courses no matter what route or approach is taken. Fun, of course, can mean the preservation of a design and charm in order that people can see what was done in days gone by. On the other hand, changing a seemingly historic/classic layout to make it more fun to watch a tournament or play or look out across with a drink in hand is also necessary. We also have an obligation to the future golf architects and golfers, who are infinately more important that those who are dead. Had we not fostered the likes of our great artists — no matter the area of their work — we would not have the "greats" to behold today.
And the great artists have not just learned from seeing the great preserved works before their time. No. They have also learned from seeing the butchered art and archietcture of their day, and which has also come before them. Seeing bad is enlightening. It is probably what motivates some on this site to chirp so often and loudly.

So, is it OK that Tom or Bob or Jeff or Bill or Mark or Ted or Wendy or Hans (the new golf architects) get a chance to tinker with courses, both classic and non? Yes. Will they make mistakes and annoy some who call their work awful? Yes. But in my book, just one great and terrific new idea that may never have been thought of, which finds it way through the cracks of all this preceived awfulness, is extremely important. Now, do I want to see Tom or Bob or Jeff or Bill or Mark or Ted or Wendy or Hans really screw things up? Of course not. But rarely are golf architects, new or seasoned,  given unfair access to do such. It is always a process and whether due to politics or fate or luck or stupidity, it sometimes happens that the wrong person is given a green light to do the wrong thing. Funny, though, that this wrongness is in our present-day perspective — and in reality we know not what it will be seen as in 100 years. And, in a 100 years — if it is stills seen as wrong — it will likely be corrected or changed yet again....as I believe we are doing today, as we discuss.

So, you see, it is a cycle. And in no sport or game or any of the design arts of the built environment do we have what golf has provided: A living canvas on which what we draw is no more permanent than chalk on a sidewalk. For it may last — with great heroics — but it is not designed to by nature or the movement of people across its skin. The chalk may become messy. It may wash away. But rebuilding and re-drawing it is part of the fun and excitement.

Golf is much bigger than any of us. It will endure past all our opinions as it has gone well past the opinions of others. All of our history of golf  is relatively recent. The deepest reaches of it go no further back than 500 years. And almost all of it goes no further back than 100 years. And all that we can say for absolute certainty goes back not much more than 50 years.
The only thing for certain is that the courses we speak about today will change tomorrow morning, and every morning thereafter. Whether from wind, hot air, people, bad ideas, good ideas, or grown men and women with gin and tonics who think they know everything.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

TEPaul

Re: Restoration: Bunk or not?
« Reply #87 on: June 09, 2003, 08:03:52 PM »
Pat:

You and I kid around a lot on here and I constantly tell you you're right only about 2% of the time although most know we're kidding.

However, on your post #86 you're about as right as rain!

"Restoration, or whatever you choose to call the project, is far more complex then some would have you believe."

You're not joking. Understanding what might be best in a restoration and maintenance vein on the golf course itself takes a lot of time and study but being effective inside the club itself is every bit as important. A really solid education in architecture, agronomy and maintenance is a great thing to have but you need to be persuasive inside the club itself to be effective. And if you're lucky enough to have both whatever you get accomplished sure better work for that membership day in and day out or even with all your education and persuasion you're gonna get screwed anyway.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Restoration: Bunk or not?
« Reply #88 on: June 09, 2003, 08:10:36 PM »
"...you're about as right as rain!" — Don't worry Pat, I'm am having this framed at the all-night frame shop as we speak! Life is great, so is Chardonnay.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Restoration: Bunk or not?
« Reply #89 on: June 09, 2003, 08:31:10 PM »
Forrest Richardson,

It's easy for some to pontificate or posture from the ivory tower, it's quite another matter when you're embroiled in a restoration, or whatever you want to call it, project.

TEPaul has a broad experience with a membership contemplating and undertaking changes, and he can tell you, as I have, that it is a far more complex process than some would have you believe.

There is utopia and idealism, and then there is the reality of a concept put before 300 owners, their spouses and children, employees and consultants.

Purists should be ecstatic if they get 75 % of what they want accomplished.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Restoration: Bunk or not?
« Reply #90 on: June 09, 2003, 08:55:46 PM »
Forrest;

You said a lot that's true in your last post and you've made a convincing plea that the dynamic of the art of architecture should proceed forward with new and fresh ideas. You also said this generation is polarized. Maybe it is but only to about the same extent that every generation is polarized from that generation that preceded it and that generation which comes after it.

But all of us should look closely at the evolution of architecture in about the last 100 years, particularly in America, and learn some lessons from it because although anyone would expect things to inevitably continue to cycle I doubt many want to see things cycle in the future in some of the same ways they have in the recent past!

In the beginning of the first fifty years of the last century the artform of architecture in America itself was pretty badly butchered and that inspired architects to do so much better--ie the initial disgust of C.B. Macdonald with the landscape of American architecture and then his motivation to do NGLA because of that and all that followed for about the next 30-40 years that truly was a remarkable time in golf architecture.

Then in the ensuing fifty or so years from around the 1930s and 1940s on the artform did not just continue to advance in interesting and innovative ways but it proceeded to butcher a good deal of what came before it--ie much of that exquisite architecture of that remarkable era we sometimes refer to as "the Golden Age".

So there's nothing wrong at all with proceeding into the future with a zest for innovation and change in golf architecture but this time and with every future time and cycle at least let's understand a bit better and appreciate a bit more what came before us and not butcher it, as we did, so far only through one cycle in the 100 year evolution of golf architecture in America! That's something we really do need to learn never to do again.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Restoration: Bunk or not?
« Reply #91 on: June 09, 2003, 08:58:02 PM »
I know well the politics and process. Albeit in my own small world. We are currently working on a 27-hole private club where all the members (1000+) came together to set fire to me at a stake and dance upon my ashes singing "Glory be, the architect is dead."

Fortunately I brought Power Point and they became sick at the graphics and had to leave. We are now in the middle of the first nine to be "transformed". I would use the word "restoration" but Tom MacWood might keel over in surprise.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

TEPaul

Re: Restoration: Bunk or not?
« Reply #92 on: June 09, 2003, 09:32:29 PM »
Forrest:

I don't know you and I don't know your architecture either but you might have something very important going for you which was once annuciated by Mark Twain and used in the last year or so by Whooooopi Goldberg as she accepted her Mark Twain award for comedy during those dark days following 9/11. Whoooopi said she was thinking of not coming to get her Mark Twain award because of 9/11 but then she remembered Mark Twain's remark;

"NOTHING in the world can withstand the ONSLAUGHT of----HUMOR!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ForkaB

Re: Restoration: Bunk or not?
« Reply #93 on: June 10, 2003, 12:22:52 AM »
Tom

My understanding as to why Shinnecock, Muirfield and others were renovated in the first 30 years opf the last century had much more to do with the demands of technology than the design quality of the original courses.  Given that Muirfield held 5 Opens and 5 Amateurs prior to its Colt renovation, I doubt if it was held in too low esteem by the R&A.

Here's an interesting factoid (at least to me):

The Longest Golf Courses in Britain--1904

The Old Course                 5,283 yards
Royal St. Georges              5,280
Hoylake                           5,236
North Berwick                    5,202
Dornoch                           5,096
Muirfield                           5,085
Prestwick                          5,041
Machrihanish                     4,999

Source:  Herbert Warren Wind

These courses added 1,000-1,500 yards to cope with the Haskell ball, not because their designs were not of any architectural or historical value, IMO.

Hmmmm.......I wonder if such an impetus for change will ever come again?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Restoration: Bunk or not?
« Reply #94 on: June 10, 2003, 01:12:06 AM »
I think you know, Rich, that we are in the middle of it! Look no further than Oakmont, one of the few classics that has room. No. 8 — now 280-something, par-3.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Restoration: Bunk or not?
« Reply #95 on: June 10, 2003, 01:15:09 AM »
By the way, Rich, everybody loves Paris. I really don't know what the big deal is. I mean, it's an ordinary, but likable, Texas town. Why must you remind us?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

ForkaB

Re: Restoration: Bunk or not?
« Reply #96 on: June 10, 2003, 02:15:53 AM »
Forrest

When I registered for the site I was given the default "I Love Yabbadabba Doo" or whatever.  I wanted to change it and the word "Paris" just came to mind.  Don't know why.  I've come to like the sound of it, however, and think that maybe I might just write a song....
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

T_MacWood

Re: Restoration: Bunk or not?
« Reply #97 on: June 10, 2003, 05:25:40 AM »
Rich
There is a difference between adding yardage and the major overhauls that took place at Muirfield and Shinnecock. Each one of those courses you list has a different story--how they evolved and why.

Those yardages look a little short even for 1904. By the way Muirfield wasn't redesigned until the mid 20's many years after the introduction of the Haskel.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Restoration: Bunk or not?
« Reply #98 on: June 10, 2003, 06:24:14 AM »
And, Rich, do you know if those were the members' (regular) yardages?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

ForkaB

Re: Restoration: Bunk or not?
« Reply #99 on: June 10, 2003, 06:40:33 AM »
Tom and Forrest

I too was surprised when I first read these numbers, but it is HWW's research, not mine (pp 22-23 of "Following Through").  I assume he was talking about medal tees (I don't even think there were such a thing as "member's" tees in those days).  The numbers do generally corespond with old routings I've seen of Dornoch (when, for example, "Foxy" was a 320 yard (or so) hole).
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »