[Pat_Mucci]

Over the years I've heard many comments about Seminole's routing, but, it wasn't until today that I more fully appreciated its genius.

The genius I discovered today is the incremental and decremental alteration of the values of each hole created by shifts in the direction of the wind and the ability of the course to remain essentially intact or equivalent in the totality of those values, irrespective of the direction of the wind.

A golf course that can retain its inherent values and its cumulative value, in the context of wind direction from any one of 360 degrees, has to be viewed as the product of genius.

What's also apparent is the vast size of the greens, and how wind direction and velocity can alter the preceived or practical size of those greens.

The variety of hole locations and its effect on play is marvelous.

What other routings have this quality ?

[Mike Nuzzo]

Pat,
How large is the site?
It appears as if its trapezoidal shape, or the use of that shape, allowed for increased angles of play.  Similar to what C&C were able to accomplish on a larger site like Hidden Creek?  Lots of W's and V's (when looking from above).
How contoured are the large greens?
Anything like Champions Cypress Creek - which now average over 10,000 sft, which are fairly contoured?
Cheers

[Neil Regan]

The genius I discovered today is the incremental and decremental alteration of the values of each hole created by shifts in the direction of the wind and the ability of the course to remain essentially intact or equivalent in the totality of those values, irrespective of the direction of the wind.

Pat,

  This is also true of Ballybunion, though the genius there is collective through the years.

  The most concise demonstration there is at the 14th and 15th holes, par 3s of about 140 and 220 roughly South and NorthWest. The shots are Wedge and Driver, or 6-iron and 7-iron, and every 2-club combination between. The easier the long hole plays, the harder the short one, and neither is ever easy, but both always a joy.

  Likewise, if the giant 2nd is short, the 11th is the world's most satisfying par, but if the 2nd is long today, then the 11th is the world's most satisfying par.

  At Ballybunion, Standard Scratch goes down only in (the rarest) absence of wind. It stays steady with most winds, but rises with the cold and rain.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Pat aka Patrick, I could not agree with you more. I have told several friends that i really feel Seminole is a better golf course than Cypress. The drama of Cypress and the lack thereof at Seminole will forever keep one separated from the other. They are both elite courses and deserve all the praise they get.

[wsmorrison]

Pat,

I think Indian Creek is in that same category of design for wind.  Of course Indian Creek was designed for winter play; most of the courses shut down about this time of year, including Seminole.  So prevailing winter winds are the primary force in the routing determination.  Would you say this is this true of Seminole as well?

Flynn's NLE Boca Raton South was a great example of taking the wind into account in the routing and hole variety progression.

[David_Madison]

How about the Ocean Course at Kiawah? Played the course just once, but was very impressed by it's apparent flexibility and balance given the potential for wind induced havoc. Within the two loops, Dye angled the holes and shots in every direction. Plenty of width to work those angles, and large greens to provide accessible or tucked cups. And the holes can be lengthened or shortened by as much as 100 yards to adjust for the winds coming from any direction.

[Pat_Mucci]

Wayne Morrison,

While some courses do shut down for the summer in Florida, prevailing winds aren't the only winds those golf courses experience.
I've played Seminole, Pine Tree and others in a great variety of wind directions, sometimes within the same day.

[JESII]

Also very rare a course with holes that may play easier into the wind than downwind (#5, #8, #10, #12, #17).

I have seen this type of balancing before, but never for a complete 18 holes. #13 - #15 at Royal St. Georges is an example. In any given wind direction, you have a par 5 and two long par 4's, the order just rotates with the source of the wind.

Re: Seminole, a year ago I gave a good freind some advice as he was heading to the Coleman for his first visit to the course. He is a very long hitter, so clearly is going to have many wedge approaches, and I told him to plan on trying to get some of those wedges just to the front apron. From there he might be able to make a par which would be much more difficult if he thinks he might get his ball to stop on the green (if they are up to the speed and firmness you describe). He did not fare well.

[ForkaB]

How significant is the "normal" wind at Seminole?  If it's mostly only a 0-1-club wind, changes in direction are fairly irrelevant.  If it's 1-2 then things start to get interesting.

[JESII]

How significant is the "normal" wind at Seminole?  If it's mostly only a 0-1-club wind, changes in direction are fairly irrelevant.  If it's 1-2 then things start to get interesting.

Rich

I know what you mean about the relevance of 'mild' shifting winds, but I think Seminole is a bad example of that because of how differently the ball reacts on the greens based on wind direction. With green speeds above 10.5 or 11, the second hole plays vastly different into a light breeze than it does when helping. Into the wind, the front right bunkers get tons of action due to putts and chips from past or left of the green. With a breeze blowing up the hill this is not nearly as common and therefore not nearly the concern, adding another element of planning to a seemingly benign layout. This phenomenon occurs on a large number of holes there.

This is probably not common, but is certainly the case at Seminole.

[ForkaB]

Thanks, Jim.

[Rick Shefchik]

The genius I discovered today is the incremental and decremental alteration of the values of each hole created by shifts in the direction of the wind and the ability of the course to remain essentially intact or equivalent in the totality of those values, irrespective of the direction of the wind.

A golf course that can retain its inherent values and its cumulative value, in the context of wind direction from any one of 360 degrees, has to be viewed as the product of genius....

What other routings have this quality ?

Pardon my seeming lack of respect for Seminole, because this certainly is not intended to be disrespectful, but for how many courses would this not be true?

Most of the courses I play have not been touched by genius, as Seminole may very well have been (I haven't played it, and I have no reason to question its exalted reputation). But the courses I play can certainly be said to change significantly in strategy and character based on the direction of the wind, while still retaining the same overall totality of shot values.

I'm not at all surprised to learn that Seminole is a great golf course in all types of winds. I find the good courses I play are good courses in all types of winds, too -- even good old out-and-back Sutton Bay.

[Pat_Mucci]

Rick Shefchick,

Every course changes as the wind changes, but do the cummulative overall values remain intact ?

Some courses are difficult in one wind, easy in another.
I don't call that balance

The values of the north to south, south to north, east to west, west to east holes transition in unison as the wind changes direction, and they do so such that the incremental and decremental values equal out in the aggregate.

I find that most unusual.

Rich Goodale,

A one club length wind has a dramatic effect on the play at Seminole due mostly to the angles, slope and contouring of the greens and their surrounding bunkers which are fed by the greens.

I think it's the kind of golf course you have to play to fully appreciate.  And, those that are fortunate enough to play it in a variety of winds, and velocities enjoy a unique experience.
 

[ian]

Pat,

I completely agree with the routing is excellent. I too love the course very much.

To pose an interesting question back to you....

When you think about the geography of the property (and the limited acreage), would most great architects have found a very similar routing?

[cary lichtenstein]

What part does today's green speeds factor into your definition of genius, when the course was built for a stempmeter of 5, and today it is excess of 10?

I know I am in the minority on this site that believes Seminole while a very nice old course, is not worthy of its lofty status.

Maybe the next time I play it I will play with one of the guru's and that person will explain to me what I don't get.

Any volunteers? I am not asking for access. I have that already.

[Pat_Mucci]

Pat,

I completely agree with the routing is excellent. I too love the course very much.

To pose an interesting question back to you....

When you think about the geography of the property (and the limited acreage), would most great architects have found a very similar routing?

An integral part of the routing is the mid-property water feature.  If Ross created the configuration of the waterways then I'd definitely say NO.

If however, those waterways were as they exist today, then I'd have to answer, "I don't know.

The routing is counter-clockwise, clockwise.  

What's interesting about the golf course is the location of the clubhouse.

I doubt, if you were building Seminole today, that you'd select the existing location and elevation as your clubhouse site.

The question is, who selected that site, Ross or Hutton.

If it was Hutton, then Ross by default had to start and end there.  If it was Ross, you'd have to wonder why he chose that spot, and if he chose it because the routing he had in mind dictated it.  It's sort of the chicken or the egg question.

Cary,

I'm not so sure that I agree with your assessment of the green speeds.

Where do you think the course is lacking in values ?
How is it not worth of it's lofty status ?

Can you name a bad hole ?

The course epitomizes what CBM stated about judging a feature, a hole, a golf course without playing it extensively, under all conditons.[/color]

[TEPaul]

Pat:

That's an interesting point about the location of the clubhouse of Seminole. I never really thought much about that. One would've thought even if they chose the same basic site for the clubhouse that somehow they would've got it up higher or on the dune behind it so at least one could see the ocean from the clubhouse. I always thought it was sort of odd that the clubhouse sat under the dunes in the lee of the dunes. Just to the right of the clubhouse and behind it is a sort of grubby and hot unattractive spot under the lee of the dunes. That area used to be where Ogden Phipp's helicopter would land and take off. Ogden Phipps helicopter actually worked to my advantage many times. I played a lot of golf there with my Dad against Ogden and when we were done playing my Dad would make me play backgammon against Ogden as he waited for his helicopter. I was a pretty good backgammon player but Ogden was close to world class. My modus operandi would be to go immediately into a back game just to stall because I knew Ogden's hellicopter would always be right on time. Over the years that delaying tactic knowing his helicopter was coming probably saved me a lot of money!  

[ForkaB]

A one club length wind has a dramatic effect on the play at Seminole due mostly to the angles, slope and contouring of the greens and their surrounding bunkers which are fed by the greens.

Pat

"Dramatic" is a pretty waffly word, IMO.  Please tell us what you mean and give us some specifics re: Seminole, or elsewhere.

Thanks

Rich

[Pat_Mucci]

Rich,

Some of Seminoles greens are deceptively large.
Many if not most feed to flanking bunkers or the front or back of the green.

An example of a dramatic difference could be found on many holes, but, I'll pick the second to start with.

The second hole requires a carry over a lake/pond and then an uphill approach to a green fronted and flanked with large, deep bunkers, with a rear bunker and sea grape behind it.
The green feeds the off green areas, including bunkers.

With a pin toward the front right, those who try to squeeze their approach between the front of the green and the pin in a one club breeze can have that one club breeze dramatically affect their thinking and the results of the shot, especially a slightly mis-hit shot, since the front right 10 % of that large green increases in slope from the rest of the green, feeding the large right side bunker, which sits well below the putting surface.

Conversely, if the hole location is back left, a one club breeze, with or against the golfer can have a dramatic effect on their thinking and on their play.

Remember, the green is canted, uphill and slightly angled.
Internally, it might even be called a slight humpback.

A one club wind will have a dramatic effect down wind and into the wind since the consequences for long and short approaches are dire, and, any approach that drifts right meets an ugly fate in the form of unpleasant surroundings well below the putting surface.

Like wise on the third green where westerly winds add another hazard to a green that slopes low front to high back and right to left.  Any ball hit to the left side of the green will feed down into ugly surroundings well below the level of the putting surface.  A one club wind, right to left, will dramatically alter play and results of miscalculated or mis-hit shots.

The angled nature of the green, its elevation, its cant, make approach shots to the back tier extremely difficult and a one club wind is often the catalyst that brings about disaster.

I could go on and on about each hole, but it would be a daunting task, because, the unique configuration of the greens, their unique setting, and their surrounding areas, coupled with numerous hole locations, wind direction and velocity make for infinite variety and challenge.

And, a one club length wind  has a dramatic impact on your mind and your shots.

Hope that helps.

[wsmorrison]

"While some courses do shut down for the summer in Florida, prevailing winds aren't the only winds those golf courses experience.

I've played Seminole, Pine Tree and others in a great variety of wind directions, sometimes within the same day."

Pat,

I am well aware that prevailing winds are not the only winds that you can experience on a golf course.  The question I had related to whether the course was designed with the winter prevailing winds in mind.  Various weather conditions present variable challenges.  What about the prevailing conditions?  How do they relate to the design?

I may be dense but the wind-driven strategy and playability issues you bring up do not seem unique based upon the specifics of Seminole.  I haven't been there so I'm sure that adds to my lack of understanding.  Yet, the issues you bring up effect a number of courses that I am familiar with in much the same way.

[ForkaB]

Thanks for your detailed reply, Pat.  Unfortunately, it does not really help in that I still cannot see how a one-club wind, per se, affects the strategy of the player on that hole (BTW, I know very well a very similar greensite, so I do understand what you are saying vis a vis the values of various shots relative to various pin positions).  For a decent player, why would it make much difference if he were hitting a 5-iron rather than 6-iron to that front right pin position?  I could argue that a mild zephyr might even make the shot easier, regardless of from which direction it came.  At least to me, having a bit of breeze allows oneself a bit of help in shaping shots, and also heightens the senses.

And, I am not, of course, debating the fact that Seminole is an extremely well-routed course, even though I've never played there.  I accept the opinions of you and others on this and elsewhere regarding Seminole's quality.  I am just honestly asking whether or not the all-points-of-the-compass theory of routing (particularly in terms of wind, and most particulalry in terms of courses that only experience moderate winds) is a truth or a myth.

Slainte

[JESII]

Shivas

I've had a question I couldn't figure out how to ask for a long time and you just worded it perfectly. My question does not relate to Seminole, but to golf courses in general. If you don't mind I'm going to steal that question and make it a new thread.

[Pat_Mucci]

Rich,

The answer is:  Because a 6 iron, with a little spin may not make it to the proper plateau, and with the greens at 12, the slope in that section falling to the front of the green, and the wind pushing your ball in that direction, shots just slightly short of the "safe" plateau meet a dire fate.  And, shots hit long of the pin have a treacherous putt confronting them.
One fellow putted from above the hole on Sunday, his putt ran slightly past the hole, gained momentum and ended up 10 yards off the green in a deep bunker.

The surrounds on the greens are mowed tightly.

Shivas,

It's genius, it's in the architecture.

The discovery may be recent, but the existance of the retention of the overall balance despite 360 degree wind direction changes has been there since I first played the golf course, I just didn't recognize it until Sunday.

I've only been playing Seminole since around 1962, so perhaps others may be more familiar with the golf course prior to that date.

Seminole has historically held it's own against the best players in the world, so it's not a recent occurance.

As far as my recent discovery, that has more to do with the overall balance in the values despite the incremental and decremental changes on each hole brought about by 360 degree changes in the wind direction, rather then a phenomenon brought about by modern technology.

In addition, I'm hitting the ball far, far shorter, recently, then I have for the last 40 + years.  Yet, the cumulative balance of the golf course remained  in tact for me, as it does for some very superior Mid and Senior Amateurs.

Wayne Morrison,

I can't speak to intent, but, if I was to guess, I'd say yes, since the starting holes generally benefit from the prevailing winter winds, with the finishing holes providing a far sterner test.

I believe Ross endorsed easing one into the round, so perhaps having the wind at your back on # 1 and # 10 wasn't a design accident.

TEPaul,

The location of the clubhouse, who located it, when and why fascinate me.

It seems like such an illogical place, unless, Ross routed the course first and this was the clubhouse location by default, or, Hutton wanted it at its present location and Ross designed the golf course accordingly.

Does anyone know the history of the siting ?

Brad Klein, Michael J Fay ?

[Pat_Mucci]

What are referring to when you say "it"?
The routing.[/color]

Pat, are you telling us that it took you 43 years to figure this out?  

It was more of a discovery then solving a puzzle.[/color]

Be careful.  One could interpret that to mean that anything you say today could be dead nuts wrong until the year 2048.  

Nah, In 43 years I've never voiced a contradictory opionin regarding the routing, cumulative values and the wind[/color]

Kinda puts a damper on contemporaneous discussion, doesn't it?  

Not at all.
If someone had mentioned it to me 10-20-30 or 40 years ago I would have given the thought serious consideration.
That I mentioned it currently doesn't obviate the theory.[/color]

Moreover, are you telling us that you remember the wind direction and velocity and their effect on the shot values of every round you've played at Seminole since -- and including -- 1962?  You must, otherwise you couldn't make that statement....  

My wife says that I have the best selective memory she's ever seen, hence, I take the fifth.[/color]

Seminole has historically held it's own against the best players in the world, so it's not a recent occurance.

Pat, again.. be careful.  Does a course's ability to "hold it's own" necessarily lead one to the conclusion that the aggregate of the shot values is the same, regardless of wind conditions?  

My comment was made in the context of your theory that the shot values have only evidenced themselves at Seminole in very recent times due to advances in technology[/color]

In other words, if the premise is that it's been hard for 40 years, then indisputable conclusion to be drawn is that the shot values are the same?

I don't think the wind has blown in the same direction for the last 40 years.  And, I think an argument can be made that the cumulative values have remained in tact, despite 360 degree wind variations, as evidenced by the scoring.[/color]

First, are shot values the same as resistance to scoring?
They can be.[/color]

And second, given the technological changes over the years, are you saying that Seminole is just as tough to score on as it was in 1962?

I bet it was pretty tough to get common or Ormond Bermuda to stimp at 12+ in 1962.[/color]

Has Seminole changed at all since 1962?  

YES[/color]

If no, then the course has gotten harder vis-a-vis what it was in 1962, since technology has made the game easier.  

If yes, then you can't logically draw the conclusion that the shot values have been the same if the course has changed, can you?  

Yes you can because you don't know how the course has changed and to what degree the changes influenced the shot values.  The elasticity of length has a way of preserving shot values.[/color]

As far as my recent discovery, that has more to do with the overall balance in the values despite the incremental and decremental changes on each hole brought about by 360 degree changes in the wind direction, rather then a phenomenon brought about by modern technology.

In addition, I'm hitting the ball far, far shorter, recently, then I have for the last 40 + years.  Yet, the cumulative balance of the golf course remained  in tact for me, as it does for some very superior Mid and Senior Amateurs.

Does that mean that the course has gotten easier?
NO[/color]

You said earlier that the course has continued to hold its own.

That's correct, historically and currently against the best pro's in the land, as long as the wind BLOWS.[/color]

So despite the fact that you've gotten shorter, the course, as a whole, presents the SAME challenge.

I never said that.  That's your convoluted logic.[/color]

- which you seemed to imply is the same thing as shot values -- in the aggregate?

Your conclusion is wrong because your premise is wrong.[/color]  

Has it gotten shorter too?

NO, it's gotten longer.[/color]

Most likely not.   Perhaps, it's just your all-world short game that's compensating?  

Unfortunately, my short game was of little help.
My game wasn't up to the task.
I was ten shots higher then I was in February when I was even shorter.[/color]

Maybe it's just that you've gotten smarter than you were in 1962?  Are you or are you not smarter strategically than you were in 1962?  Maybe -- just maybe -- you hit the ball worse, you chip and putt better, you're smarter, the course has changed, the maintenance techniques have changed, the clubs have changed and the ball has changed -- and the end-result is that the course presents the same aggregate shot values.  Just maybe.  Sort of like how 2 + 2 = 4, but so does 2+6-7+9-6=4, too??

NO, NONE OF THE ABOVE APPLY.

It's the genius of the architecture, the ability it possesses to present a similar, cumulative challenge, irrespective of which of the 360 degrees the wind is blowing from.[/color]

That's  a helluva lot of variables to state with certainty that   the architect is responsible, don't you think?  Do you really think that Ross designed with all these variables in mind at the time?? [/i]

YES, I feel that Ross understood the uniqueness of the site, and the impact the almost constant winds would have upon it's play.

If you look at the configuration of the holes, the routing, you can see the balance in the north to south, south to north, east to west, west to east holes.

Have you ever played Seminole ?

In the WIND ?[/color]

[ForkaB]

Thanks, again, Pat.

With all due respect, what you have described is a fine green complex with an AMM (Admirable Maintenance Meld) which plays differently upwind or downwind.  There are hundreds of holes like that.  You are talking hole design, not routing,IMO.

Now, if you were to say that at Seminole every hole has a unique challenge BECAUSE OF its orientation vis a vis the points of the compass, then maybe I might begin to put some credence to your thesis.  Until then, however, I think what you are describing is just a very well designed golf course.  Nothing to sneeze about, but hardly "genius."

Slainte

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