News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Mike_DeVries

  • Karma: +0/-0
Greywalls review in Golfweek
« on: April 23, 2005, 04:18:21 PM »
The April 23 issue of Golfweek has a review of Greywalls on p. 28 by Brad Klein.  Wondering who might be making the trek to Marquette this year and your thoughts/questions on the article.  More info. is available at http://marquettegolfclub.com/public/Home.htm

Mike

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Greywalls review in Golfweek
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2005, 04:40:36 PM »
Bring your binoculars. "Yikes-meter" included with the green fee. It's worth the trek, as I make clear. Congratulations DeVries, for having tamed a tough site.

Mike_DeVries

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Greywalls review in Golfweek
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2005, 04:46:21 PM »
Brad,

Many thanks for your enthusiastic review!  Always a pleasure to tour a course with you and get your insight.

Mike McGuire

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Greywalls review in Golfweek
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2005, 04:49:47 PM »
Mike

I would love to make the trip. Maybe someone will arrange an outing. A great day of golf.... 18 at Greywalls and a Langford nine next door for desert.

Brad

Loved the lines in your mention of The Heritage. We have the exact situation at my home course... Langford/Gill.  What's with that Gill dude?

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Greywalls review in Golfweek
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2005, 05:05:55 PM »
David Gill, the father; Garrett Gill, the son. What can I say, they were/are both regional (Midwest) architects who did a lot of work. I can't speak of the son's work, but in this case of Greywalls the father showed little regard for the heritage of design, much less for who Langford & Moreau were and what they meant to architecture. Sad, really. But also typical of a certain postwar approach to golf course architecture - bysomeone who should have known better when it came to working on an older course.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2005, 10:03:07 PM by Brad Klein »

Brian_Sleeman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Greywalls review in Golfweek
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2005, 05:59:42 PM »
Please pardon me for speaking as the lucky assistant professional of the place...

Kudos and thanks to you, Brad, on capturing the essence with your skillful writing of what it's like to be on the site of Greywalls.  A place like that needs to be experienced in order to be understood, but your words go a long way in providing the reader with the real sense of it.  It's easily the best written review we've received so far.

This was done before we even had 9 open, with all 18 finally opening for the first time this spring.  I have to say the course came through the winter beautifully and I'm looking forward to seeing some GCA'ers out there this year.  

Mike gave us an extremely unique and exceptional golf course with a tremendous amount of variety and depth sure to please and excite all golfers, particularly those who pay attention to what's beyond the drama of the surface.  

Regarding the Heritage, the shrunken greens and "dopey conifers" hit the nail on the head when it comes to the Gill revision, though that is something we'll hopefully rectify in the coming years.  Those comments will do some good in future restoration proposals, as there really are some great holes in the Langford nine.

Jonathan McCord

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Greywalls review in Golfweek
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2005, 08:32:01 PM »
   Does anyone happen to know, if David Gill designed Spencer Golf and Country Club.  I believe it is him, but maybe I am getting confused with somebody else with a similar name.  Mr. Klein do you happen to know, being that SGCC is highly rated in Golfweek as a top public course in Iowa?
"Read it, Roll it, Hole it."

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Greywalls review in Golfweek
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2005, 09:58:45 PM »
Jonathan-

David Gill did design Spencer Golf and Country Club.  I like the course very much but is definitely a prototypical 60's golf course.  Strightforward, linear, fair holes with big greens, but little that is unique or memorable.  I can't recall conifers, but they may be there.  It is very similar and designed at about the same time as the original 18 at Bunker Hills in Minnesota.

Its style would not blend very well with a classic Langford/Moreau course.

Brad

Has Garett done any redesigns of classic courses?  In my view he bats 50% or better (Willingers, Inverwood, White Eagle (good), Legacy, Majestic Oaks Gold (bad)) with the courses he has built near the twin cities and they are nothing like his father's.  I question whether it is fair to lump them together.  
« Last Edit: April 23, 2005, 10:00:38 PM by Jason Topp »

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Greywalls review in Golfweek
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2005, 10:04:17 PM »
Jason, fair enough point. I edited to separate out their work, as I can only comment on David Gill's work at Marquette GC.

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Greywalls review in Golfweek
« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2005, 10:34:57 PM »
I just looked up Marquette on the map. Wow, pretty much off by itself.

If one were to go there, what other courses would one make part of that trip and where are they?
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Brian_Sleeman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Greywalls review in Golfweek
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2005, 10:55:08 PM »
Coming from the south or west (Wisconsin, Minnesota):

Iron River CC is a nine hole Langford design which has not been dulled over the years as much as most, definitely worth playing if you're a fan of Langford & Moreau.

Iron Mountain along 141 is home to two decent courses, classical Pine Grove CC (dates back to 1910 or so) and the modern Timberstone GC.  Timberstone has received a lot of accolades from Golf Digest and Golf Magazine for its value; it's always in great shape and features a lot of elevation changes but in my opinion suffers from some artificial features and is basically set up as a resort course.  Still worth a play though.

From the east / Mackinac Bridge / downstate Michigan:

Wild Bluff near Sault Ste Marie, designed by Gaylord resident Mike Husby, has gained some notoriety for its position as a stop on the Canadian PGA Tour (Michelle Wie played against the guys there in 2003).  It's got a lot of the flavor of the Gaylord resort-style courses; it is afterall part of a casino complex.

Indian Lake GC in Manistique is a combination 9-hole classic/9-hole modern, the back nine added just a few years ago by Mike Husby.  The front nine sits on a large field sloping down toward picturesque Indian Lake and features some great subtle ground features, and the back nine is carved out of the woods and is extremely tight off the tee.

You can't really go wrong with any of those courses, but Iron River CC and Indian Lake are my favorites and are more in the "hidden gem" category.  Rounds at either of the other courses are likely to be much slower.

Anyone planning on making the trip, please feel free to contact me if you're looking for any hotel/food/general visit recommendations.

Jonathan McCord

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Greywalls review in Golfweek
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2005, 02:50:09 AM »
    Thank you for the response Jason.  I am a native of Spencer and lived there for 18 years.  I am now attending college in Michigan but enjoy getting back to Spencer whenever I can.  The Spencer Golf and Country Club has some conifers that come into play especially on the front nine.

     I am very passionate about the course, because it was the course where I got my first par, and where I played high school golf and developed into the player I am today.  I would encourage anyone who is heading through NW Iowa to play the course as I am sure you will not be let down.
"Read it, Roll it, Hole it."

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Greywalls review in Golfweek
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2005, 10:10:55 AM »
I am headed to play Greywalls sometime in July. Fortunately, I have a client in Marquette so I need to see him and will most certainly bring my clubs. While I am in Michigan, i am going to try and see Kingsley, Arcadia Bluffs, CD, and Jim Engh's new course, True North. It should be a nice summer trip. ;)
Mr Hurricane

Mike_DeVries

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Greywalls review in Golfweek
« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2005, 01:20:30 PM »
Quote from: cary lichtenstein

If one were to go there, what other courses would one make part of that trip and where are they?
[quote

Cary,

You should really make the effort to go to Lawsonia Links (N. central Wis. at Green Lake and 1 hour west of Kohler) -- it is one of my favorite places to play and is better than most say it is - REALLY!!!!)  Of course, the courses at Kohler are good also, but much more expensive, and I would play Lawsonia 9X out of 10 if I lived in the area -- it is that good!  These are 3.5 to 4 hours south of Marquette, drive time.  Northern Lower MI is about the same -- it is a little less than 3 hours from the Mackinac Bridge to Marquette and is a pretty drive and easy, with good roads, despite no expressway.

If you are flying, Marquette is very easy to get to with daily flights from Minneapolis, Detroit, Chicago, or Milwaukee.  The airport is a former air base and can handle landing the Shuttle in emergencies, so there is plenty of runway for any size plane.  The golf course is about 20 minutes away via car.

Marquette is a great city, with friendly people and lots of outdoor recreation in the area (mountain biking, camping, hunting, fishing, and a slew of winter sports!).  Plus, it home to N. MI University and therefore has decent nightlife, not big city, but good pubs and bands that come through regularly.

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Greywalls review in Golfweek
« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2005, 01:42:26 PM »
Mike:
I will take your recommendation. Please help me a little more with the geography on these courses

My wife and I are takiing a late summer trip thru the Northwest, and then thru the Dakota's, Minn, down thru Wisc.

We are playing the following Minn in this order which is what I believe to be correct:

Hawktree
Both courses at Giants Ridge
The Classic at Madden
Interlachen
Windsong Farm
Hazeltine
Stone Ridge-Quarry

Then onto Wisc:

The Bull at Pinehurst Farms
Milwaukee CC

What I need to know is: Where do your course recommendations fit into this geography? After which course in Minn to I head over to Marquette and about how long is the driving time? Do I play Lawson Links before or after The Bull? I've played Kohler Courses a dozen times.



 
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Greywalls review in Golfweek
« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2005, 02:46:02 PM »
Only 998 miles from my house.  Heck - we drove up to Cape Breton, NS a few years ago - we can do this too!

What are the best months to play?  I know that Northern New England is nasty in early summer due to the black flies.

Brian_Sleeman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Greywalls review in Golfweek
« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2005, 08:17:01 PM »
July and August are ideal, though June and September aren't bad - this past September was the best month of last summer.

Brian_Sleeman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Greywalls review in Golfweek
« Reply #17 on: April 24, 2005, 08:48:20 PM »
Just to kick off a little discussion on the particulars of the Greywalls review...

I'm curious, Brad, if you were able to play the back nine when you came last year?  (I remember the weather was pretty terrible and you weren't able to be on the property for long).  

Holes 12-15 in particular are about as solid a golf experience as you can get, and many of the architects and raters who've already come through and given glowing reviews have mentioned 13 as one of the best par 5's they've ever seen.  I know Mike considers it one of his finest.

As far as 18 goes, that one is sort of the "homecoming" of the course: after experiencing a blend of drama, variety, and DeVries/McKenzie-style classical golf (the first time I saw 12 and 14 I felt like I was at Augusta), you finally reach a point where it's all downhill through a tumbling mogul valley of a fairway and into a broad plain to the final green, where you can finally exhale.  Another option on 18 that we'll make good use of is turning it into a demanding long par four in tournament golf.  The green itself has more going on than appeared last fall when it was still growing in, and any other ground features would have appeared completely artificial.  

That's the essence of Mike's design out there - a minimalist treatment of a dramatic front nine and then his signature style on the back nine more in keeping with a place like Kingsley.  

The only other rating issue I don't quite understand is the "interest of greens and the surrounding contours."  That one's really baffling as I've been out there hundreds of times and every time I go I see something new about a number of greens.  The green on #1 is set on a balance beam with closely mown fairway falling away at all sides.  Number 2 by contrast is set into a hill falling away to the right into the trees, with an approach that if taken directly toward the green must carry a rocky gorge; the other option being far out to the left of the green and falling with the slope down onto the two-tiers - the higher you throw it, the further it rolls down, thus allowing you to choose your tier via a corresponding angle of the slope on the left.

Holes 4, 7, 9, 11, 12, 14, and 18 also call for a variety of ground-style approaches to get close to many pins, each with a different set of surrounding slopes and contours.  Number 9's skyline rock-bowl green caps one of the best holes I've ever seen.  And the greens are what people really notice when they first see the place.  There isn't one that feels like a repeat, yet they all bear that DeVries creativity and call for a similarly creative response.  Much like Kingsley (but not quite as extreme), the correct line on a putt may be up to 90 degrees to the right or left, play off another slope or two, and eventually make its way back to the hole.  I'll be going out there some afternoons with just a putter in my hand.

Otherwise I thought you really captured it well, particularly with the skillful language you employed to catch the dramatic feel of the place.  We'd love to have you back once it's matured some more.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2005, 09:04:14 PM by Brian_Sleeman »

Matt Vandelac

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Greywalls review in Golfweek
« Reply #18 on: April 24, 2005, 08:48:41 PM »
Sounds like a great place to check out.  Thought I'd like to suggest a must play on anyone's visit to Wisconsin, Big Fish Golf Club in Hayward, WI.  We opened last summer and so far the approval is outstanding.  Pete Dye and Tim Liddy designed a great golf course here.  I will post pics soon and hope all the raters in the region can come by this summer and give it a look.  We're ready!

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Greywalls review in Golfweek
« Reply #19 on: April 24, 2005, 09:05:41 PM »
Just to make clear, I played all 18 holes. It was Labor Day, heavy overcast, but occasional flashes of blue sky.

In reviews of this nature, repeat visits are rare, and so I have to take in as much as I can at once and make a judgment on that basis.

Mike_DeVries

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Greywalls review in Golfweek
« Reply #20 on: April 24, 2005, 11:13:07 PM »
Mike:
I will take your recommendation. Please help me a little more with the geography on these courses

My wife and I are takiing a late summer trip thru the Northwest, and then thru the Dakota's, Minn, down thru Wisc.

We are playing the following Minn in this order which is what I believe to be correct:

Hawktree
Both courses at Giants Ridge
The Classic at Madden
Interlachen
Windsong Farm
Hazeltine
Stone Ridge-Quarry

Then onto Wisc:

The Bull at Pinehurst Farms
Milwaukee CC

What I need to know is: Where do your course recommendations fit into this geography? After which course in Minn to I head over to Marquette and about how long is the driving time? Do I play Lawson Links before or after The Bull? I've played Kohler Courses a dozen times.
 

Cary,

I think the Bull at Pinehurst Farms is north of Kohler a little ways, but not quite sure.  Lawsonia is straight west of Kohler and northwest of Milwaukee, so I think you would want to go from Greywalls to the Bull to Lawsonia to Milwaukee CC, in that order.  

Not sure of Minnesota courses' actual locations, but I think the Madden and Giants Ridge courses are a few hours north of Minneapolis, where Interlachen is -- maybe Jeff Brauer can help out on Minnesota golf and locations.  There is also an old Ross course in Duluth, Northland CC, that is supposed to be quite good.  From there you are going straight east along Lake Superior to Marquette -- probably 4 hours, not sure, from Duluth.

Sounds like a great trip!

Will E

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Greywalls review in Golfweek
« Reply #21 on: April 25, 2005, 08:22:36 AM »
The Bull almost touches Blackwolf run, and as much as I liked it I would go to Lawsonia first. In fact there are probably only a handful of courses in the midwest I'd go to before going to Lawsonia, it's that good.
From what I'm reading and hearing Greywalls sounds like an outstanding destination. Congrats Mike.

JakaB

Re:Greywalls review in Golfweek
« Reply #22 on: April 25, 2005, 04:10:28 PM »
Paging Joe Hancock.....I just got my Golfweek in hand and think this is the most oft base review Brad Klein has ever done...am I wrong.   How bout that second shot wide as a whale strategy on 18....what was DeVries thinking..

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Greywalls review in Golfweek
« Reply #23 on: April 25, 2005, 04:56:08 PM »
Mike:

Thanks for the info

Cary
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Greywalls review in Golfweek
« Reply #24 on: April 25, 2005, 05:01:10 PM »
John:

This is the type of post that pisses me off. Have you played this course? If so, why don't you just explain to us why you think "this is the most oft base review Bread Klein has ever done".

Just to make the statement, without any facts, no explaination is one of my pet peeves, and in my recent post "What can we do to improve CGA", I went on to explain this point.

If you haven't played this course, why would you post this?
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta