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THuckaby2

But you succeeded in getting an answer from wishy-washy, apolitical, never say a bad word ME.

That has to be the greater victory.

 ;D

Mike_Cirba

Tom,

Thanks and I appreciate where you're coming from and Heaven forbid that man falsely accused.

But, how are accusations handled in other areas of life...in teaching, in boy scouts, in sports, or perhaps just the strange old man down the street?  

It's been shown in most cases that the stigma and embarassment associated with boys over the age of 10 or so involved with same-sex contact with an adult prevents false accusations.  Also, many of these cases were "open secrets" that persisted for years and years and were hidden by superiors and other officials.  

I'm not looking to paint with a broad brush here, but it's a serious problem that the previous John Paul regime just took a flyswatter to.  He was a great Pope in many ways, but there are many lingering challenges.

THuckaby2

Mike:

The teacher, the boy scout, the guy down the street does not lose the very fabric of his being just based on an accusation.  With the climate today, that DOES occur with priests.  One is guilty until proven innocent, and no amount of clearing of one's name gets any of this back.  

And while you are correct in that studies show that the stigma would prevent most children from making false accusations, there are certainly teenagers with their own axes to grind, especially in school situations.  Then one combines that with the potential financial windfalls to be gained, and you simply can't say false accusations are uncommon.

Please understand I am not defending the actions of any offender here, and I agree with you that the last Pope could certainly have taken stronger action.  I'm right with you there.

I just do believe it's also not correct to say all priests should be immediately defrocked and prosecuted when the accusation occurs.  I don't think you'd say that either.  Thus the question becomes at what point do these actions become necessary?

TH



Mike_Cirba

Tom,

I'd agree with everything except your first sentence.  

Ok...enough religion and politics for one day.  Back to the Sand Hills debate....oh wait...isn't that "Church"?   ;D

THuckaby2

Mike - I can live with that.

And yes, that is "church" out there in Mullen, NE.

 ;D


James Bennett

  • Karma: +0/-0
If I were elected Pope of golf, then...

Mock top collars would have to be allowed at all clubs, just as the priestly dog-collar would also be allowed.

Also allowed would be full length cloaks for men, along with knee length kilts for those of more northern and esteemed heritage, along with the regular pants and shorts.

by order

James VIII.I

(James, official handicap currently 8.1 ;D)
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Gene Greco

  • Karma: +0/-0
Huck:

    If you check your calendar you'll see that the Pope and Cardinals of this website are already meeting at The Sand Hills in June. :)
"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

T_MacWood

This is a little off the subject...but I was half listening to one of the many erectile treatment commercials last night, and one of the warnings at the end is if your errection should last for more than four hours immediately seek medical attention...which I've always found funny...but for some reason last night I had a vision of myself being carted off Sand Hills in an ambulance.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2005, 10:05:29 PM by Tom MacWood »

Gene Greco

  • Karma: +0/-0
"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

Gib_Papazian

Mike:

 One is guilty until proven innocent, and no amount of clearing of one's name gets any of this back.  


Huckster,

One thing I have learned in the last four years - after being dragged into 4 different litigations:

THERE IS NO CONSEQUENCE FOR LYING IN CIVIL COURT. NONE. ANYBODY CAN ACCUSE YOU OF ANYTHING AND EVEN IF IT IS DISCOVERED THEY LIED UNDER OATH, OR SIGNED A FALSE INTERROGATORY OR AFFIDAVIT, PERJURY LAWS ARE NEVER ENFORCED.

People are supposedly presumed innocent in this nation. That is complete nonsense.

You are presumed guilty in civil court and if the plaintiff has an attorney working only for a cut of the settlement, you end up blowing thousands and thousands of dollars to defend yourself against lies with no chance to recover any of it. There is no incentive for them to tell the truth because it costs them nothing.

Good luck forcing your accuser to cough up for your fees.

Ask me how I know.

If one of those priests are guilty, they ought to be hanged in the town square. However, we have become a nation of greedy, sue-happy liars. If somebody is caught falsely accusing another person of "molestation" or "child abuse" in order to get revenge, or custody in a divorce or whatever, I say they get the rope just like the pedaphile.

And if I were Pope, I'd play from the front tees because I would be 78 years old. . . . . jeez, I am not a Catholic, but what were they thinking about? The laws of probability suggest they are likely to go through this exercise again in a few short years.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2005, 12:09:19 AM by Gib Papazian »

Patrick_Mucci

Gib,

That's the purpose.

In sports it's refered to as an interim coach.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2005, 08:43:52 AM by Patrick_Mucci »

TEPaul

Mike Cirba and Dan Kelly:

You want to talk about a progressive doctrine for the Catholic Church. Here's mine:

Not that long ago I went to a Canonization in Rome. It was great and it was impressive. However, the following day I went through the Vatican. You want to talk about the world's largest f... fortune!? My God, the church has about $12 trillion dollars in art in there! By the time I exited the Sistine Chapel (the end of the tour) I was smokin". I attacked all my relatives who are Catholic and asked them what the Hell all that is for? They told me about the all important "City of God" on Earth.

My ass---it's the biggest hypocritical farce on Earth!

Maybe it would take 100 years to unload all that art without crushing the world's art market but they better start. Can you imagine---they could line the entire Earth with endless really cool golf courses and still have $10 trillion left over to solve every social ill in the world! They could probably even have enough resources left over to catch Osama's ass and fry it too after they forgave him!

They're sitting on an ineffable Mother Lode and laying the big guilt trip on poor people all over the world for their nickels and dimes!? Biggest bunch of hypocrites I ever heard of. I like the middle age "indulgences" better---at least they were a more obvious and straight-forward scam!

:)
« Last Edit: April 20, 2005, 08:55:01 AM by TEPaul »

Mike_Sweeney

Tom,

The value of the artwork in The Vatican is a small fraction of the value of The Catholic Church's land holdings! :o

THuckaby2

Gib:

That was my point - and you don't want to ask me how I know.  But well said.  But as to the point Mike and I were discussing, this is why a rush to judgment - ie immediate defrocking and removal - is very problematic.

Patrick:

I alluded to that earlier as well.  It's just not wise right now to put in a progressive or make big changes, given this Pope is going to be compared so directly to the seemingly soon to be beatitified JPII.  It would be just setting such a Pope up for failure.  After this interim decade or so, the time hopefully will be more right.

Mike_Cirba

Gib,

Having been to civil court recently, I know exactly what you are talking about.  It's a nightmare.

Mike

Gib_Papazian

Huckster,

Hard to believe, but we have finally found a subject where I am with you 110%.

All we have to do is watch that circus down in Santa Barbara with Michael Jackson. He is an unsympathetic character and may have done some shaky things - but the accusations by the crazy mother now look specious.

I wonder how many Priests have been falsely accused.

Now, there is no doubt in my mind that most of the time the charges are true and the accuser is credible. But having been on the wrong end of the "innocent until proven guilty" gun several times, I say we are very very careful before branding a man with a capital "P" on his forehead for life. (Pedophile)

The problem is that even after the jury, judge, or custody evaluator figures out who is lying through their teeth, you still carry that "accusation" in your past. Forever.

Trust me, the shrill accusations of abuse or whatever at the outset - and whispers behind your back - undermine and eventually obliterate your positive Chi'.

Ask me how I know. I can only imagine what it would be like to be a Priest in that situation.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2005, 10:00:35 AM by Gib Papazian »

THuckaby2

Gib, please.  There are lots of issues that we agree on.  Start with love for NGLA.  USC.  Lots of other golf courses.

 ;D

As for all of this, well said once again.  And thanks for saying it.  This is an issue that is far from as simple as it seems.

TH


Gib_Papazian

« Last Edit: April 20, 2005, 12:22:24 PM by Gib Papazian »

TEPaul

"Tom,
The value of the artwork in The Vatican is a small fraction of the value of The Catholic Church's land holdings!"

Mike:

Is that a fact?

Well, then, here's a better idea. Get our litigator friends on here to sue all the pedophiles and the Catholic churches and dioceses and when we win a $15 trillion dollar award it'll force them to turn all the church land over to us and we'll build really cool golf courses on all of them.

ForkaB

Dan Kelly

Are you listening?

Band Name of the Day:

"Gib Papazian and his Gang of Thugs"

I'd be a groupie for that band. ;)

Mike_Sweeney

"Tom,
The value of the artwork in The Vatican is a small fraction of the value of The Catholic Church's land holdings!"

Mike:

Is that a fact?

Well, then, here's a better idea. Get our litigator friends on here to sue all the pedophiles and the Catholic churches and dioceses and when we win a $15 trillion dollar award it'll force them to turn all the church land over to us and we'll build really cool golf courses on all of them.

Tom,

It has been done in Boston ! Unfortunately my alma mater is going to used the land purchased from the Archdiocese of Boston for silly stuff like housing, and classrooms. They could have used it to finally spread out the Donald Ross designed Newton Commonwealth CC across the street, but noooo they want to educate people!  ;)

From NYT's:

Boston College, a Jesuit institution that is independent of the archdiocese, will acquire 43 of the headquarters' 60 acres for $99.4 million. The money is due by June 30. The college will most likely use the land, in the city's Brighton section, for playing fields and office space, said a spokesman, John B. Dunn. It plans to buy an additional 3.25 acres for $8 million by June 2006, Mr. Dunn said.

Archbishop O'Malley insisted throughout the settlement process that no parish or archdiocesan operating money would be used to settle cases of sexual abuse, including a landmark $85 million settlement with more than 500 people who say they had been abused by priests in the archdiocese.



Mike_Cirba

If only Alex Findlay had been more convincing when he tried to persuade Pope Pius? to build a golf course at the Vatican.

If he had, would it have taken long for the Cardinals and Pope and Seminarians to catch the bug and transform the place into Italy's version of St. Andrews, playing matches in team colors, etc.?

Before you know it, "Saint" courses would have spread across all of lower Europe, perhaps avoiding two world wars and beyond, spreading the good word of par and bogey and employing laborers, architects, cartgirls, etc., lifting Europe from a general malaise and so on...

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
M. Cirba,

As a practicing Catholic in Ohio, I did notice that a number of the priests enjoyed golf on a regular basis.  I never got invited, but heard from third parties that the collars were loosened, a few coins changed hands, less than priestly language was overheard, and the alcohol flowed freely in the clubhouse afterwards.

Come to think of it, I never heard of any sexual foul play going on up there.  So, if Pope Benedict doesn't change the church rules on celibacy, perhaps he'll order a realignment of its vast land holdings and provide affordable golf to keep the minds of the clergy and the flock occupied on something wholesome.

As Pope Pious, I would order a lottery day once a year during the peak of DST at each of the top 100 Modern and Classic courses.  There would be three shotguns of 36 foursomes, for a fee of the normal accompanied guest amount, to be shared 20/80 by the club and the church, respectively (we wouldn't want to get the clubs in trouble with the IRS).  There would be a few scholarships for the needy.

Local church volunteers would keep the play going, cook dogs and burgers, sell beer, wine, and soft drinks.  The locals would get to keep 25% of the church's share, the diocesce would get another 25%, and Rome gets 50%.

Martha Burk would be my head of club relations with Calypso Louie (Farakan), the director of security, having a dotted line to her office.  The Rev. Jackson would lead my outreach efforts and assist Ms. Burk with hesitant club managers.  As my Chief Change & Crisis Management Officer, the Reverend Sharpton would also serve double duty as ad hoc ambasador of goodwill.  Finally, former Presidents Bush and Clinton would be the honorary starters, one at the #1 Classic course, and the other at the Modern one.

Yes, it is a slow day here and my left elbow is still smarting from all the golf a couple of weeks ago.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2005, 12:52:18 PM by Lou_Duran »

ForkaB

Yes, it is a slow day here and my left elbow is still smarting from all the golf a couple of weeks ago.

Lou

With a modern swing, all those left elbow problems should just fade (pardon the pun) away.  At the top of your swing, make sure to come down with an anti-pronating wrist counter flex through the ball, and all those aches and pains will soon be history.......

Glad to be of help.

Rich

Mike_Cirba

Hmm...wonder if golf is the mindless pagan variant of some aesthetic, wiccan, nature based anti-religion, as well?   ::)

At the Eighth International Church Music Congress in Rome in 1986, for example, Ratzinger blasted rock music as a “vehicle of anti-religion”. He said rock and roll is a secular variant of an age-old ecstatic religion, in which man “lowers the barriers of individuality and personality” to “liberate himself from the burden of consciousness”. Rock is thus “the complete antithesis of Christian faith in the redemption”.

I see a real party coming.   :P ;D
« Last Edit: April 20, 2005, 02:44:22 PM by Mike_Cirba »

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