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T_MacWood

TFazio's best site
« on: April 13, 2005, 06:28:10 AM »
The thread on St. Andrews Beach got me thinking about the extradordinary number of great sites made into golf courses in the last few years...Bandon area, NZ, Australia, Nebraska, Friars Head, etc, etc...what is the best site Tom Fazio has been given?

Is it the short course at PV?

What is Pete Dye's best site?

Casa de Campo? Kiawah? Somewhere else?
« Last Edit: April 13, 2005, 06:29:41 AM by Tom MacWood »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:TFazio's best site
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2005, 06:36:14 AM »
Pete's best course is Casa de Campo.

Tom Fazio keeps insisting that the quality of the site is not the driving factor in the final product, so his sites don't really matter.  I'm glad he keeps saying that, though!

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TFazio's best site
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2005, 06:43:15 AM »
Fazio: Dallas National

Dye:The original 18 holes at Kohler known as the River and the Valley
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

John Foley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TFazio's best site
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2005, 06:54:04 AM »
From what I've seen Dye's best site has got to be The Ocean Course.

For Fazio I'd venture World Wood Pine Barrens ( and IMHO he produced an excellent course).
Integrity in the moment of choice

A_Clay_Man

Re:TFazio's best site
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2005, 08:09:51 AM »
The Preserve

Tom Doak;

What did I miss at Casa De Campo? TOD was a mix mash, with very little strategic offerings. The pictures do look great, don't they?


Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TFazio's best site
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2005, 09:08:28 AM »
For Fazio, Camp Creek west of Panama City was an excellent site within spitting distance of the beach.    Surprisingly good elevation changes, no housing requirement to restrict the routing and ideal sandy soil.  

I like much of his work but was disappointed in the golf course.  After a 9,000 yards walk, I understood why everybody else played cartball.  

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TFazio's best site
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2005, 09:23:25 AM »
Fazio's best site would be the mountains of western NC and Wade Hampton. I liked Pete Dye's Pete Dye Golf Club the best. I have not played Casa de Campo :'(.
Mr Hurricane

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TFazio's best site
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2005, 09:29:42 AM »
I am with Adam..The Preserve
Even if it was not truly a Fazio design as such.

Cary
I know we have IM on this before, but I just done see the Dallas National craze,,but obvioulsy I am wrong because the raters at GD liked it ;)

Patrick_Mucci

Re:TFazio's best site
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2005, 09:36:19 AM »
Tom MacWood,

It's a good question.

I'd like those responding to tell us why their choice is such a good site.

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TFazio's best site
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2005, 09:42:09 AM »
Disclaimer......I like Dallas National, I just dont see it as a top 100 course..but I like it.

A_Clay_Man

Re:TFazio's best site
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2005, 10:21:46 AM »
Patrick- MWP brings up a good point that the routing was already done, by others, at the Preserve. But the site is a wonderful variety of elevation changes, reparians and flat sections.


Will E

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TFazio's best site
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2005, 10:42:11 AM »
TOD was a mix mash, with very little strategic offerings.

Adam-
I find your comments on Casa de Campo about as spot on as the recent Golf Digest rankings.

A_Clay_Man

Re:TFazio's best site
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2005, 10:44:12 AM »
So Will, you found the teeth replete with multiple opportunities to challenge the hazards and be rewarded.?
« Last Edit: April 13, 2005, 10:49:13 AM by Adam Clayman »

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TFazio's best site
« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2005, 10:46:25 AM »
I don't know what TF's best site would be, but I would consider the White Columns and Crabapple (Capital City) sites here in Atlanta to both be very, very good.  They are only about 5 miles apart, and share rolling terrain and plenty of available water.  Both also were built with deep, deep pockets.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

jim_lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TFazio's best site
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2005, 10:50:15 AM »
I doubt is there will be much agreement on this topic because there are so many different opinions on what makes a good site. For example, I completely disagree with Jim Franklin that the mountains of NC, and in particular Wade Hampton, is among Fazio's better sites. Wade Hampton is very much overrated precisely because of flaws in the site. The course is located in an area that has one of the highest annual rainfalls in the continental U.S.. Consequently, the fairways are soggy just about all of the time. To compound the problem, several holes (the 7th, for example) are built just a few feet above solid rock making drainage a big problem. The course probably has more drainage grates in the fairways than any I know of. Furthermore, because of the weather, the course is playable only about half of the year. In my view, as a minimum an excellent site must offer decent drainage, be playable year-round, not be overly dependent on the whims of the wind (the Ocean Course), and not require 2 miles of cart paths (Champion Hills, a decent Fazio course on a terrible site in western NC), not have an extreme amount of water, or require beaucoup blind shots.

Given MY criteria, I judge the best sites to be in sandy terrain, moderate climate, some-but-not-too-much elevation changes, and not too close to the ocean. Bottom line for Fazio, that means the NC Sandhills (Forest Creek), and various North Florida sites (World Woods, Pablo Creek, and Johns Island West)

For Pete Dye, among those I've played, the Golf Club. The Honors Course enjoys an excellent site, if they had not screwed it up with that very un-natural looking, man-made pond located in the middle of the course.

"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

Jonathan McCord

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TFazio's best site
« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2005, 11:00:49 AM »
  Why must a course be playable year round to be an "excellent site"? :-\  I could start naming courses that are excellent by EVERYONES standards and aren't playable year round.

  Of course, what is meant by playable???
« Last Edit: April 13, 2005, 11:01:39 AM by Jonathan McCord »
"Read it, Roll it, Hole it."

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TFazio's best site
« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2005, 11:02:06 AM »
Perhaps his new Whisper Rock in Scottsdale. C&C really wanted this project.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

jim_lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TFazio's best site
« Reply #17 on: April 13, 2005, 12:27:54 PM »
Let me elaborate on my earlier post.  When I speak of an "excellent" site, I mean one that is nearly flawless or perfect. There are many very good, and even outstanding,  courses built on sites that have one or more shortcomings. There are even some good courses built on very mediocre sites. Those just seem to require more imagination on the part of the architect, money from the owner, and tolerance from the players.

Lots of wonderful courses are not playable year round. I just suggest that the site is therefore less than flawless. Many excellent courses are built on the ocean and can be nearly unplayable on days the wind is extreme. The Bandon courses and the Ocean Course come to mind. Some very good courses are built on flat terrain (Pine Tree) and some have lots of cart paths (Fazio course at Barton Creek).

I know of no outstanding course that has a chronic drainage problem, excessive water (especially man-made), excessive forced carries, excessive blind shots, or very severe terrain.
A good architect can compensate and produce a good course (Fazio at Wade Hampton), but these are flaws that make it nearly impossible to produce an outstanding result.
"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

T_MacWood

Re:TFazio's best site
« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2005, 01:39:32 PM »
Im my view a great site involves sand, preferably in the form of sand dunes by the sea. Sand and land with good movement is the most important factors in my mind, being by the sea has the added advantage of wind and ocean views. But there are inland sites like Sand Hills, PV, Melbourne and Surrey that are nearly ideal.

I would put little or no importance year round play...I don't think the site at Sand Hills is any less spectacular or ideal because the course is unpayable in winter....name me a better inland site.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2005, 01:39:51 PM by Tom MacWood »

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TFazio's best site
« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2005, 01:59:14 PM »
TF's best site, from what I have seen was at the Preserve. That land could practically qualify as a national park. You have rolling land, surrounding mountains, wetlands, barrancas, etc... To think of what Eckenrode, DeVries, Hanse, Doak, et al. could have done with that land boggles the mind.
   The course they ended up with is pretty darn good, but with that land, the result could have been incredible.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

jim_lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TFazio's best site
« Reply #20 on: April 13, 2005, 02:25:53 PM »
Tom:

I agree that Sand Hills is built on a wonderful site and is the best modern course I have seen. If it could be played year round it would be the only perfect site I know.

Frankly, I could care less about ocean views. As often as not the oceans/large lakes are as much a negative as a positive. Too often the routings are gerrymandered to maximize the ocean exposure at the expense of a more logical flow. The Bandon Dunes course and its infamous 16th hole is a good example. Also, proximity to the ocean can present winds that fluctuate from too light, to just right, to too strong. The course is usually at its best on the days the wind is just about right.  I have never seen an ocean view more beautiful than the rugged terrain at Sand Hills.

Did you ever notice that many of the great couses in Scotland and Ireland are near the sea, but offer very limited views of the sea? Anyway, I'm not much ito ambiance. Heck, I even think Carnoustie is beautiful.
"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TFazio's best site
« Reply #21 on: April 13, 2005, 02:31:55 PM »
Anyway, I'm not much ito ambiance. Heck, I even think Carnoustie is beautiful.

A man after my own heart.... :)

Re: the World Woods courses, does anyone know which is closer to what the land was like originally? Was Rolling Green more created or Pine Barrens? Or were both? Or neither?

Regardless, it's the best site of the extremely limited number of Fazio's I've played (a whopping 4).

How good a site is Pelican Bay?
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Geoffrey_Walsh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TFazio's best site
« Reply #22 on: April 13, 2005, 02:50:01 PM »
Of the Fazio courses I have played, Hudson National was my favorite site.

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TFazio's best site
« Reply #23 on: April 13, 2005, 02:51:36 PM »
WW Pine Barrens is the best Fazio course I have played ...

In regards to The Preserve, the terrain might be perfect but how is quality of the soil?  Is it sand based or is it the famous NorCal clay?
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Geoffrey_Walsh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TFazio's best site
« Reply #24 on: April 13, 2005, 02:52:44 PM »
George - do you mean Pelican Hill?

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