[Doug Wright]

Brad Swanson's mention on the Breckenridge thread that they've expanded to 27 holes reminded me of a pet peeve--I really don't like 27 hole courses!  In particular, I don't like the 27 holers that rotate play among the three 9s so if you happen not to like one of the 9s for any reason you may be stuck playing it anyway on a particular day. Sure you can call ahead to check but for those of us who can't always pick the days we want to play I think it might drive traffic away--at least it does me.

27 holers just seem odd. Maybe it's me who's odd...

All The Best,

[Dan Kelly]

Doug --

If you're odd, so am I.

At 27-hole complexes, I never know what the "course" is!

One Twin Cities 27-holer (Braemar, a hugely profitable public course) labels the holes on its third nine Nos. 19 through 27 -- which adds to the lost-in-space quality.

[Scott_Burroughs]

I also don't like 27 holers without a 'main 18' (such as Southern Pines GC has).  27-holers, all built at the same time, have no character to me.

Huntingdon Valley has ABC nines, but AB is like 'main 18', since C was dead for so many years.

Athens CC has newer nine that they try to make indistinguishable from original 18 by naming each nine with similarly-themed names, but no ones buys it and knows what the 'real 18' is.

Metedeconk N. has 3rd nine, which many consider better than 2nd(?) nine, but original 18 will probably always seem  like 'main 18' to some.

TCC has 3 quality nines, but since tourneys are played mostly on 'Clyde/Squirrel' combo, many think of them as 'main 18'.

Governor's Club in Chapel Hill, NC is same way, with main 18, though they call 3rd nine holes '19-27'.

[Mike Benham]

As the Northern Cal contingent knows, the NCGA-owned Poppy Ridge facility is 27-holes, Merlot, Zinfindel and Chardonnay nines.

What I find "interesting" is that the 3 18-hole configurations that can be played have the exact same slope and rating !!!

Maybe one of the NCGA raters can explain that one to us (Huckaby).  I guess the architect (Rees Jones) would have to have made handicapping a part of the routing and design process.

[THuckaby2]

Mike:

Re Poppy Ridge, the nines are all quite similar, in distance and perceived difficulty. as you know.  I doubt Rees did anything other than just try and keep the three nines similar... it's tough to plan for slope and rating exactly.  In any case I asked about this also once and I was told the ratings just came out this way mathematically... Kinda hard to believe, but that's what they told me.  I can see how it would happen, but what I really think is they came out close enough such that it wasn't worth the effort (printing on scorecards, programming for posting) to set out the tiny differences.

SCU 67, USD 65.  The beloved Broncos continue to amaze me, winning with zero talent.  Oh yes, this was a big one... I have had great fun with emails to my USD alumnus brother and alumnae sister and cousin...

TH

[Tar Heel]

27-holes make sense at many Private Clubs, especially ones with a large senior membership.

This allows the older members to play nine holes at their pace without feeling pressured.  It also is great for ladies and junior golf too.

A great example of this is Roanoke Country Club in Roanoke, VA as I understand this facility takes advantage of their 27 hole layout in this manner.

Part of the course was created by AW Tillinghast back in the day.  However sadly it was "bastardized" recently.

[Lester George]

Tar Heel,

You should get your facts right before you make comments on courses.  

First, there is no conclusive evidence that Tillie did Roanoke Country Club in its current location.  It is widely thought that he did the original course (different location) that no longer exists today.  

Second, when I did their renovation/restoration plan five years ago, I researched every document the club had and more to establish the "original" 18 holes from the "new" nine that was forced in the late sixtes.  We used a 1916 routing plan that showed both existing and proposed changes to the course to establish the most historic holes.  This plan also demonstrated that the course had been altered back then to allow for residential considerations.

What was consistent throughout our research was that the current front nine was the nine least altered from 1916 on.  The back and middle nines were a conglomeration of old and new.

In any event, I was engaged by the club to add expanded practice facilities and rebuild greens.  My plan suggested early on that the front nine need not be altered except for the creation of an irrigation resevior which only slightly impacted the 1st and 5th greens.  

Plans were originally to build the new practice facilities but the City of Roanoke revoked the clubs rights to buy city water due to an extreme drought and it was decided to create the resevior and rebuild the two greens.  After that, it was decided to rebuild the other seven greens, which have been very well recieved by members and guests alike.  

There is one thing you stated that was correct, the 27 hole operation does work very well for many clubs.  

If you would like to discuss this further, I would be happy for you to call me at 804-272-4700.

Lester George

[ForkaB]

Tarheel

I was just about to post something similar!

I belonged to a 27-holer (Sawgrass CC) for a few years, and as Doug, Dan and others have said, it wasn't completely satisfactory.  This was due to the fact that they rotated nines, and the 3rd 9 (South) while a good (semi-)track, never seemed to gel with the other two original ones.  The best combo always remained East-West.  If they had done what you suggest (i.e. reserve the 3rd nine for 9-hole play) I think it would have satisfied more people (including me) just from a golfing sense and also increased usage of the course by 50% in the bargain!

[Tar Heel]

Let me clarify please.

1)Granted I understand the exisitng course might not be all AW's (better than Tillie, I think) work.  But his influence and old school appeal is there.

2)I agree the routing might be more "historic" but the details of the recent "renovation/restoration" is hardly up to AW's work.

3)The reverse curves and mounds placed during the "renovation/restoration"  are quite out of place.

4)Apparently I'm a guest who was not as impressed.

AND THE REASON FOR MY ORIGINAL POST:
5)At least we agree that RCC uses its 27 holes to the fullest extent.

[Craig_Dex]

Speaking of 27 hole complexes...

There is a new one on the horizon in Augusta, GA called The Big Three Golf Club.  Jack, Arnie and Gary are each laying out nine holes, completely independent of one another.  In a case like this, I think it will work because you won't have one architect trying to make each nine play to the same slope/rating/distance.

I am not a huge fan of Nicklaus designs.  Even though I believe in the minimalist approach, Arnie doesn't move enough land in my opinion, which means he should either reconsider some of his routing or move a little more earth.  And, I've never played a Gary Player design.  In any case, this 27-holer should be interesting, and it will certainly have character.

- Craig Dex

[John_Conley]

I like 27 hole courses, particularly for membership play.  With the 3rd nine, you add so much flexibility to the experience.  A lot harder to get bored with the 3rd nine, provided it offers some variety.

Successful 27 hole courses in my area include:
Grand Cypress
Errol Estate
Rock Springs Ridge
Sugar Mill
Cleveland Heights (only four par 5s!)

If you have an inferior nine, I can see how there may be some problems.

[yogi_barry]

Sahalee Country Club has 27 holes, with the North and South comprising the tournament layout (south front).  The East nine is nearly as good, just on less impressive land and slightly more open.  

I've played numerous times as a guest, and have played all combinations - but I'm not sure how they organize play.  It's a sensational track each way - and the extra 9 helps this otherwise TIGHT course handle the media, etc. needed to host a major championship...

[henrye]

Something just doesn't seem right about not having a stand alone 18, but I have played at an excellent public/resort facility layed out in 3 nines.  It is on my top 10 list.  Isla Navidad located between Puerto Vallarta and Manzanillo on the west coast of Mexico is a gem.  The 3 nines are named the ocean, the lagoon and the mountain.

Henry E.

[Paul Richards]

Huntingdon Valley and Black Sheep are two fine 27-hole courses I can think of.

[Pete_Pittock]

Royal Adelaide, 18 original holes cut through forest, and 9 new holes, part forested and part "linklike" by TWP which in no way fit with the rest.

[Greg Stebbins]

27 holes works very well at Ridgewood CC.  You can't beat sending 3 groups at a time out on Saturday and Sunday mornings.  However 27 holes only works well here since all 3 nines were designed at the same time and work well together.  Members have their preferences, but all three nines are of equal quality.  I don't think the same concept would work well at a public course.

[Evan Fleisher]

Dave,

You forgot Arrowhead in Wheaton!

[Tyler Kearns]

I would concur that 27-hole layouts lack a true "course", although it is invariably perceived by the golfers. Here in Winnipeg, St. Charles CC has 3 nines, and as a guest one is always hoping for the north/south rotation, featuring nines by Alister Mackenzie & Donald Ross (the only times the work of these great masters appear on the same property). The west nine is a good Norman Woods course, but not all the holes blend into the character of the overall place.

Growing up, I worked in a pro shop of an 18-hole private layout, and an additional nine would have been fantastic for accomodating members who routinely show up without a tee time. It would also allow members the chance to play some golf during corporate tournaments that nuisance the membership from time to time. Further, a relatively quiet nine would always be open for people desiring to play nine, or even practice, or settle ties in matches.

Tyler Kearns

[hoggmeister]

I wonder how many 27 hole courses started out as two 18  hole courses?

The course my dad played on when i was a kid, Race Brook in Orange CT was originally two courses but they had to sell off 9 holes and now have a 18 and a 9. My father always said that the course that lost the nine holes was the better of the two.

[Paul Richards]

Evan:

you said:
>Dave,

>You forgot Arrowhead in Wheaton!


I'm sure that was pretty much by design!

[Forrest Richardson]

TKearns -- Your quote [I would concur that 27-hole layouts lack a true "course"] is a bit hectic in thought, don't you think? I mean, gosh, these are just series of golf holes. Does this mean if transported back in time when we played The Old Course closckwise and anticlockwise you would think of it as "not a true course"...or when we played but just 10 holes you might play elsewhere? Perhaps down south...near barren London Town?

Here is the scoop: It matters not how many holes. Playing a combination of holes set up by the green crew on the morning before you arrive is part of the fun and flexibility. It is another variable -- akin to duplex fairways, alternate greens, optional tees, alternate routes, multiple pin positions, varying winds, etc.

One of the most fun aspects of golf is when we change it and allow courses we thought had been mastered to change and become something different. The 27-hole complex can do this often -- and often very well.

I agree that forcing like yardages and difficulty is a bad idea. But this is not always the case.

[Tyler Kearns]

Forrest,
       Hectic in thought? Perhaps. I guess my feelings are in part due to situations where a lack of continuation between nines exist. Be they built by different architects, or in different eras. I would like to correct your interpretation of my statement, I do not think that 27-hole layouts should not be defined as a true course, I simply feel that they, in the example stated above, lack an tangible identity that an 18-hole course has. Because of the 3-loops of 9, a nice variety can be achieved, namely 6 different courses (NS-NW-SN-SW-WS-WN), but each course has a different feel, albeit shades of the same colour. Maybe it's simply an idiosyncratic preference to define & categorize courses, an easier task at an 18-hole track? I can really define my sentiments appropriately, it's just a preference (I've never dreamt up my ideal dream course as a 27-hole layout).
       As stated in my earlier post, I feel that a 27-hole layout has many functional benefits to the smooth operation of a golf course.    

Tyler Kearns

[Matthew Mollica]

Pete P - you said -

Royal Adelaide, 18 original holes cut through forest, and 9 new holes, part forested and part "linklike" by TWP which in no way fit with the rest.

Don't you mean Royal Canberra ? Given that the pines were planted at the site of the original 18 many moons ago, and that the neighbouring land upon which the new nine is built, is completely different, it was always going to be very hard to seamlessly match the original 18.

I agree with you that the old 18 and new additional 9 are like chalk and cheese, but I would suspect that the club asked TWP for an additional 9 to facilitate casual play, for those older members, (there are a considerable number at RC), who might just like to potter around for 9 holes, and not disturb those playing on the championship layout ...

Matthew

[Forrest Richardson]

OK, TKearns -- Next time we play golf we need to plan on 27 holes. Or 14. Or 16. Or 25. Or, perhaps we'll make up our own game and play from #1 tee to #16 green; #17 tee to #4 green; #5 tee to #22 green, etc.

The eighteen hole standard began one of golf's most unfortunate eras. It fostered 7,000-yard "standards", par-72 ideals, returning 9s, par "order", equal nines, formulas that get forced into sites, and nail-clipper precision. All of these in appropriate doses are OK. But the problem is that the doses are now way out of whack.

[yogi_barry]

Why does a facility need to have a true primary 18 holes...?  

Does that 18 holes need to play to a par 72 & 7,000 yards...?  

My "standard" summer weekday evening round of golf goes from my house to #8, jump across to #2,#3, jump across to #7, and back home.  If I'm lucky I play the loop twice as the days get longer after work.  

It's not standard, (par 5-5-3-4) but especially wonderful when my daughters tag along with me.

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