[Jeff Goldman]

According to the American Club website, the Irish course at Whistling Straits is going to be walking only next year ($198 with caddie).  I think Ben Dewar posted a rumor about this but it now appears confirmed.  This lets me out (I am a diabetic and walking isn't recommended outside of special occasions - WS and, someday, Bandon), and despite Ben's upgraded view of the course he posted last summer, I don't think its a big loss.  The par 3s all go the same way and the par 5s also seem to have the same shot over a creek.  Give me the meadow-valleys course any day for a no. 2.

Jeff Goldman  

[bakerg (Guest)]

You won't be missing much if you skip the Irish.  Definately use your energy and play Whistling and take a cart for Blackwolf.

[Jim_H]

Unfortunately, I have to agree with the comments.  As someone who loved Whistling Straits--and really liked the River Course--I wanted to like the Irish Course.  But I didn't.
I'm always amazed by tahe work of Pete Dye--either great or bad--it's hard to believe it is the same guy on Whistling Straits and the Irish Course, when they are literally next door.
The Irish Course looks like he took PGA West and redid it in Wisconsin.  Some of the holes look identical--especially the ones that go around the large pond with railroad ties everywhere.  It didn't look too Irish to me!  Disappointing on balance.

[RJ_Daley]

I'm always amazed by tahe work of Pete Dye--either great or bad--it's hard to believe it is the same guy on Whistling Straits and the Irish Course, when they are literally next door.

Maybe we have to ask the hard question; how much of it is Pete Dye?  Perhaps we will never know, but I'll speculate.  IN recent years, Pete doesn't seem to do nearly as much on site.  Couple that in the Irish Course instance with the notion that the land was not so remarkable, and they utilized massive earth works to arrive at the theme for the design, which I assume was to be something complimentary to WS and remeniscent of Ireland.  While I haven't played the Irish, I did stopp by a few times and pestered a few fellows on the construction site with questions.  Every time I was there, there were a number of design associates interacting with sub contractors for irrigation and earth moving.  Could it be that the result was a course by committee, with Herb K also inputting major design ideas.  I emphasise that I am merely speculating.  I don't know the facts.

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

There are a few reasons that they are going cart-only, but the primary one is the carts destroy the fescue.

I have played the course a few times and while I used to feel it was a distant fourth, I am starting to rethink that.

The course has come a long way and the original grasses, which were a bizarre combination have been abandoned.

Also, the property was the worst of the four courses, perhaps made even worse, if you have played the Straits course.  Choosing to along the water with all the holes at the Straits, basically assured the future of the Irish course.

All that said there are some very good holes.  The use of railway ties is basically used to shore up land, they are not on ever hole.

With the exception of 16, the course is not as severe as PGA West (for better or worse) and does quite well with the natural surroundings.  

The par three's are the courses glaring weak spot.  The first three are similar (not only in direction as Jeff pointed out) and the 13 has never grown on me.

The par fives are strong and while they all do cross creeks, they are not defined by them, with the exception of 18.  

Most people dislike the fifth hole at the Straits, realize that the Irish is basically that land throughout, and it can be accepted as a good course.

[Paul Richards]

Ben:

IMHO, the Irish course is fourth best, with Meadow Valley only running in front of it by a nose.  Some of the comments above are very true.  Frankly, I was disappointed by the Irish.

If you are playing 36 at Kohler, the schedule should be:

day 1 - Meadow Valley, River
day 2 - Irish, Straits.

Always leave the best for last!

[cary lichtenstein]

Check with their proshop...I think you can get a cart with a medical excuse

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Carts with medical excuses are allowed, but having seen someone take one on the Straits, it is tough day.  Because the cart stays off the fairways, the walk down to the fairway from the mounding is brutally tough.

Paul R,
We are agreed.  I used to have a wider margin between the two, however the course is coming into its own and is not the ugly duckling it was.

[Paul Richards]

Ben:

Glad to hear that!  I really wanted to like the Irish course, but was just so disappointed.  So now I will be excited to return and see it on your positive review.

[Matt Kardash]

Has anyone noticed that all the pictures you see of the straits course on the net are not in focus? Is it becuase there are so many odd shapes and mounds and bunkers that the camera doesn't know what to focus on?  ..I mean even Ran's pictures are quite blurry(not to mention the Red bunkers.. ) Even Ben's pictures on his site are blurry...i  think his best picture is of the 12th green.

While i enjoy the effort they made to take pictures, it seems as if there is somehting funny in the air at the straits course that makes blurry pictures..

This has nothing to do with anything, but I've noticed this from the many pictures I've seen of this course over the years.

[RJ_Daley]

Matt, I agree and noticed that so many pictures of the Straits course are in that fuzzy, golden haze effect.  Like slipping a silk stocking over the lens...  But, it isn't an atmospheric phenomenon.  I have simple 'Advantix' photos from the year it opened, and digital camera photos over the years that easily exceed many they have used on their web page.  I can't figure out why they approve those for publication either.  Then, when you do see a great photo (albeit doctored color intensity) like the one on the cover of Golf Course Management July 2002 issue, of my favorite 17th hole, they take it at the wrong angle, which isn't the true line of play.  go figure.... :-/

[Mike Nuzzo]

Ben,
What about the following schedule...
Day 1 - Straits - River
Day 2 - River - Straits   ?

RJ,
When does your season start???
Every time I've been there I've seen Pete.  
But he may have spent most of his time on the straits.

I think the blurry pictures are due to the windy conditions.
Check out J Dost's pics in the Australian annual.  (not blurry, but with limp flags)

The larger picture is of a hole on the Irish course.
Note the flat farmland in the upper left portion of the picture.

Pretty magazine pictures have something in the foreground.
Hopefully your line of play doesn't.
Also hopefully you aren't hitting from the tops of those hills,
also better for photography.

Cheers.

[Paul Richards]

Mike:

you said:
>Ben,
>What about the following schedule...
>Day 1 - Straits - River
>Day 2 - River - Straits   ?

Great plan!  However, unless you are first off on either day, it might be tough to squeeze them both in as they are about 1/2 hour apart and I have found play on both courses, and especially the Straits, to border on the 5 1/2 hour round.  So if you want this schedule, do it around June 28-30th, since I believe the 29th is the longest day of the year for sunshine here.

BTW, Meadow Valley and the Irish each have some very good holes, but, overall, they pale in comparison to their respective neighbor.

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Mike,
Paul is right, that is an excellent plan, however near impossible to pull off.  Mainly because of the time and distance, but also because the tee times for June are already filling up and it would be tough to the times to make it happen.

I went off first on the Straits this year in a foursome (one friend, two others) and despite playing with reasonably quick guys, it was 4:40 minutes.   I have never played the course in the middle of the day, but 5:30 would not seem out of the question.

2:30 seems to be the last time that gets around in June and you would be better playing the River second.

[A_Clay_Man]

I still find it hard to believe that WS is better than the original river-valley course. Doesn't WS have eye candy out the butt?

Would someone please delve into what makes WS so great?

[Jeff Goldman]

I'm here to defend the meadow-valleys course, which I think is far better than the Irish course, and well worth playing a lot.  This may be because I prefer courses that use land well (or at least appear to do so) rather than completely manufactured stuff.  14, 15, 17 and 18 are magnificent holes, and Mr. Dye seems to have used existing land features to put holes where they belong.  On 14, you have to decide how close to the right side you want to get to have a better shot at the green - depending on the pin placement.  The view of the green over the river is terrific too.  15 seems to me one of the great "heroic" par 3s, although it does have a bailout right, with an amazing green.  17 is shorter but still excellent, and 18 is the best finishing hole of the 4 in Kohler.

12 and 13 are also very good, difficult holes.  12 often plays long against the wind, and requires a decision how close to get to the junk to have the best result or a big draw over the tree; 13 is a very good "table-top green" short hole, with a wild undulating fairway.

Even some of the holes in the meadow part are good, though manufactured.  I'm thinking of 2, which is long and plays against the wind, 4, which to me is a very strategic reachable par-5, and 9 (which I admit we've all seen many times before from Mr. Dye.  The only really bad hole is no. 10, which uses the green from the hole no longer in use (which looks great) and is a narrow tree hole.

I don't think the Irish course has anywhere near this many good/great holes, is completely manufactured and looks it, and doesn't have the great scenery of the last 8 holes of Meadow-Valleys.  Also, the supposedly blind par 3 has never been blind when I've been there.  I've only played it 3 or 4 times, but I think that's enough.  

A couple of other points:

Ben, I thought the Irish course was all bent grass, not fescue.  Also, with a completely paved cartpath, they could just require cart paths only.

A Clay Man:

I understand the original course had a great routing, but would you really want to give up 5-13 on the River Course?  The transitions between the old and new nines make for a bit of cartball, but isn't a lot of the routing of this nine by itself terrific?  One hole seems to flow into another.  Try going with someone who hasn't played it before and watch their expressions on going green to tee from 7-12.  They are also some great holes.  

Jeff Goldman

[Mike Hendren]

Adam,

Whistling Staits is greatly enhanced by its scale, IMVHO.

Regards,

Mike

[A_Clay_Man]

Jeff- You know those posts about your where your soul is soaring highest? Mine was the original River course. And yes when thinking about those newer holes one marvels in how great the golf is, but if a golf course is a specified entity the newer bastardized river course lost alot of the intangable that makes places great. Sure you still get to play the holes but it was the flow and rythum to the original which made it one of the greatest i'll ever have the good fortune to golf. It must have been a very hard decision to do the bastardizing but those new nine holes are something special, just not as spiritual to me anyway.

Mike- do you mean that the site is so huge and the openness of the spaces makes it a special place? And being along the lake is always nice, even at waveland.

[Mike Hendren]

Adam,

I keenly sensed being in "the great outdoors" at WS.  The vistas are vast and unimpeded, as are the elements.  As for the architecture, I particularly liked the fairway widths and the greens' receptiveness to the ground game on longer approach shots.    

The faux dunes and myriad of pot bunkers were the least appealing aspects of the course, though the large scale of the dunes somehow made them seem less artificial.   I assume liability is the answer, but I don't understand why artificial dunes weren't designed and constructed in, instead of along, the field of play - no punchbowl. dell or Alps.  Oddly, I fell in love with the fescue turf - perhaps because it was kind to my "heavy" iron play - and found it suited my short game particularly well.  

The fifth is much maligned because it is inconsistent with the balance of the holes.  I would go so far as to say that the eighteenth is bad (oops, wrong thread) - just over the top with its cloverleaf green complex.  

Regards,

Mike

[Jeff Goldman]

Adam,

I hear you.  Playing the meadow-valleys 18 as the ninth hole, adn still having the original river 9 would be amazing.  Similarly, I would have loved to play Banff Springs as it was orginally laid out, with the original first hole (now 15th) ing played first, with the great tee shot over the river, and ending with the set of par 4s leading up to the hotel.  Starts that way like the dramatic beginning stabs of the Eroica symphony, and ends with a long great crescendo.  I am very jealous of those who did.

Jeff

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Jeff,
I am only going to chime in, again, because you mentioned the fantastic Banff Springs, ha!

The original routing at Banff Springs was fabulous, however I do not feel what was lost at the River course compares to Banff.  I would hate to give up 5, 8, 9, 11 and 12 at the River too much.

In so far as the grasses, others know this better than I, but I will try to explain.  Originally the first cut of rough was bluegrass, which always look odd.  The second cut was fescue grass.  The fairway was never fescue, it was/is bent.  The course was never intended to be cart-path only and I think that even if it were, the traffic through the grass would be too much.

You are right regarding the properties, MV is superior and hence yields a better course.  I was just trying to stick up for the Irish, which I had previously criticized along with many others.

[Matt Kardash]

Only on Pete Dye courses could there be such conflicting opinions. ..that's a great thing in my opinion

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