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Pat_Mucci

Re:Who routed Cypress--Dr. Mac or Raynor?
« Reply #25 on: March 19, 2005, 12:27:52 PM »
Tom MacWood,

I think you're selling Raynor's vision and talent short.

In most cases, the clubhouse was sited first.

T_MacWood

Re:Who routed Cypress--Dr. Mac or Raynor?
« Reply #26 on: March 19, 2005, 12:45:17 PM »
Pat
Did I say anything about Raynor locating the clubhouse as an after thought?

My point is unless we know where Raynor planned to place the clubhouse (initially), we can not say how his routing would have progressed. For example if he placed the clubhouse (when he began) in the present 17th fairway or near the present 17th green (not unlike Fishers Is) there would an atlernative to the present 17th following the 16th....perhaps that hole would proceed eastwardly in the direction of the present clubouse.

Likewise if he placed the clubhouse where the present 15th is located, the hole proceeding the 16th would also be different. That is why it is difficult to speculate what Raynor's routing may have looked like.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2005, 02:08:38 PM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re:Who routed Cypress--Dr. Mac or Raynor?
« Reply #27 on: March 19, 2005, 01:19:40 PM »
"MacKenzie describes the exchange between the two, and how they arrived at the final version of the hole. He gives credit where credit is due, which is refreshing IMO."

Tom MacWood:

He does indeed describe the exchange and gives credit for the hole where it's due and that's to Marion Hollins, not Raynor;

"To give honor where it is due, I must say that, except for minor details in construction, I was in no way responsible for the hole. It was largely due to the vision of Marion Hollins (the founder of Cypress Point). It was suggested to her by the late Seth Raynor that it was a pity the carry over the ocean was too long to enable a hole to be designed on this particular site."

If Raynor did not think a hole could be designed on that particular spot how could anyone give him credit for the routing, design or anything else to do with it?

T_MacWood

Re:Who routed Cypress--Dr. Mac or Raynor?
« Reply #28 on: March 19, 2005, 02:05:00 PM »
TE
It is called collaboration...one of the advantages of two heads rather than one.

Collaborator #1 identifies a potentially spectacular hole, but regretably the carry appears to be too long. Collaborator #2, says 'wait a minute, I don't think it is too long'...and the rest is history.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2005, 02:07:12 PM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re:Who routed Cypress--Dr. Mac or Raynor?
« Reply #29 on: March 19, 2005, 06:52:56 PM »
"TE
It is called collaboration...one of the advantages of two heads rather than one.
Collaborator #1 identifies a potentially spectacular hole, but regretably the carry appears to be too long. Collaborator #2, says 'wait a minute, I don't think it is too long'...and the rest is history."

Tom MacW:

Nice try but no cigar. It's not called collaboration at all---it's called a well known architect completetly failing to recognize the possibility of one of the world's great opportunities and needing a big strapping woman to show him how wrong he was to miss it.

Matter of fact, you should also know that it was not that depressive weirdo George Crump or that little whippet of an Englishman Harry Colt who recognized the possibilities of PVGC's long carry great #5---it was 10 year old Marion Hollins who had to tee up a ball and show both of the clueless pretenders the hole was possible!
« Last Edit: March 19, 2005, 07:04:53 PM by TEPaul »

Pat_Mucci

Re:Who routed Cypress--Dr. Mac or Raynor?
« Reply #30 on: March 19, 2005, 08:26:53 PM »
Tom MacWood,

I think it's safe to say that the clubhouse was originally sited on its present location, unless you have factual evidence to the contrary.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2005, 08:27:38 PM by Pat_Mucci »

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who routed Cypress--Dr. Mac or Raynor?
« Reply #31 on: March 19, 2005, 09:29:22 PM »
When I played Cypress Point last year, I did so with a delightful lady who was a member of the Firestone family, who were one of the original members.
She said that Ms Hollins primary directive to Dr Mc was that the clubhouse position was non negotiable and that is why the first tee shot is somewhat unusual that it travels over the road.

Gib_Papazian

Re:Who routed Cypress--Dr. Mac or Raynor?
« Reply #32 on: March 20, 2005, 12:36:20 AM »
Gentlemen,

Geoff and i have gone round the Mullberry bush on this subject numerous times and given he is a hopeless Mackenzie groupie (second only to The Captain) and that I rode around on George Bahto's coat tails for some years, it is only natural we would hold (read: cling to) diametrically opposed opinions.

The Armenian would like to point out a photo on the clubhouse wall with Hollins, MacKenzie, a phony Socialist/Limosine lefty (read: Robert Hunter) and H.J. WHIGHAM.

Whigham was a long way from home and although he was obviously having a look for one of his columns; the presence of C.B.'s son-in-law makes me wonder.

Raynor's greatest strength was in his routing ability. I feel he was the best ever at this aspect of architecture and have no doubt - nor admittedly no more than visceral *proof* - that Mackenzie used large portions of the routing in his own design.

To believe that Mackenzie did not even peek at the existing routing is idiotic at best.

Now, did he follow it exactly? Of course not! Did he jigger the holes  and their respective par to suit his vision? Of course he did.

The truth - like most mysteries - lies somewhere in the middle. Mackenzie obviously had great respect for Raynor - even if Hunter took a swipe or two at him in "The Links" - and probably used much of the basic routing left on the original plan.

I have trouble envisioning Raynor's template holes fitting into the 7-9 loop at Cypress, but one never knows.

Even the staunchest Mackenzie supporters on this issue have to admit the routing "feels" Raynoresque in many respects - sort of a flowing, seamless, meandering stroll through the different environments on the property.

My other question has always been: "How much did Hunter change the MPCC Dunes layout when he finished the golf course?"

I suspect that one is easier to answer and if I get down there to have a visiti with Sir Bob this summer, a sniff around the archive room will be the first order of business.      
   
« Last Edit: March 20, 2005, 12:28:29 PM by Gib Papazian »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Who routed Cypress--Dr. Mac or Raynor?
« Reply #33 on: March 20, 2005, 01:07:13 AM »
Once again, I will state this the best I can where you either understand it, or I group you with a Australian nut job of a golf architect who is more or less intimating that he has seen this so called "Raynor's Prized Routing."

Show us the Raynor routing! show it to me, SHOW IT! SHOW IT!

They have a photo of me on the wall of El Cholo-Pasadena. I have never cooked or made a meal there in my life! Yet, most of my posse from this board can identify me with that LA Famoso restaurant. What difference does that it make that a picture of one of the Nation's top amateur players at that time was posted there when he might have been visiting Pebble Beach?

Prove to me the signifigance of this photo! Give me the date in which it was taken! PROVE IT! PROVE IT!

 ;D

(All: One of the first conversations I ever had with my dear friend Gibby Papazian was when I acosted him on the phone in the very same way, on this very same subject. Uncle George still laughs about it to this day!)

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Who routed Cypress--Dr. Mac or Raynor?
« Reply #34 on: March 20, 2005, 01:20:00 AM »
I had to go and pull the letter I found and posted here when we all had this very same conversation from last year.




TEPaul

Re:Who routed Cypress--Dr. Mac or Raynor?
« Reply #35 on: March 20, 2005, 05:12:22 AM »
TommyN, you're a dangerous man! If we can't find the pieces that tell the true stories of golf history we can always make them!  ;)

Have you found C.B's affectionate letter to that "Lady" in Long Island yet?

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Who routed Cypress--Dr. Mac or Raynor?
« Reply #36 on: March 20, 2005, 12:11:48 PM »
Tom,
I just went looking for it in my vast collection of files, and couldn't find it.  However, how could anyone forget the words, To Lady Essendin, With kind and warmest regards. Ever affectionately yours, C.B. MacDonald

What a classic!
« Last Edit: March 20, 2005, 12:12:15 PM by Tommy_Naccarato »

TEPaul

Re:Who routed Cypress--Dr. Mac or Raynor?
« Reply #37 on: March 20, 2005, 12:21:17 PM »
"However, how could anyone forget the words, To Lady Essendin, "With kind and warmest regards. Ever affectionately yours, C.B. MacDonald"

I won't forget those words. I remember when you called up Bakst who was somewhere up ahead of us on the LI Expressway and you said those words and just hung up. I could easily imagine him up there somewhere probably swerving to miss the guard rail he was laughing so hard.

Gib_Papazian

Re:Who routed Cypress--Dr. Mac or Raynor?
« Reply #38 on: March 20, 2005, 12:42:13 PM »
Tommy,

Geoff snotted off one day about that photo to me:

"Dammit Hunter, that is not the way Raynor would have wanted it done! Do I have to send C.B. out here to straighten you out?"

Somewhere in the attic of Cypress - or in a box somewhere in the memoirs of Hollins - are those original plans.

And all joking aside, it would not shock me if Hunter burned those plans out of hubris.


Phlaaaaat!!!    

TEPaul

Re:Who routed Cypress--Dr. Mac or Raynor?
« Reply #39 on: March 20, 2005, 12:48:02 PM »
Gib:

Raynor-shmaynor! The guy was nothing more than an anal engineer who couldn't imagine a 200+ shot across the Pacific to save his life. It took a bg bull dike like Marion to show him the way and the light. Have I got a thread for you. It's gonna be called;

"If Marion had missed that shot!?"    ;)

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Who routed Cypress--Dr. Mac or Raynor?
« Reply #40 on: March 20, 2005, 01:01:02 PM »
Tom,
Now that's the most interesting statement to date!  What if she actually had missed the shot?!?!?!

Why does that long island make one feel warm and fuzzy all over?

Tony Cashmore

Re:Who routed Cypress--Dr. Mac or Raynor?
« Reply #41 on: March 22, 2005, 06:06:29 PM »
Cypress Point Golf Course

I approach this necessarily detailed response to criticism of one matter I raised in my article with the deep reverence and admiration I've held for Dr, Alister Mackenzie's work for over 45 years - I called him 'a course routing genius' - in that article, and that's just one of his attributes, for which, as other have noted, he displayed a healthy egoism and some 'exclusivity' in his possession of input into much of his design work.

Nothing I wrote in that article was therefore intended to disparage Alister Mackenzieˇ's work in his final Cypress Point creation.  So let me state here my personal estimation of the situation quite clearly:

Cypress Point as designed and looked at today and through its history since construction is Alister Mackenzie's - its final routing, fashioning, its subtleties, grandeur, diverse strategic values and sheer beauty.  (However, let's be open about this, can we? Are we going to assume that Robert Hunter Jnr. entrusted by Mackenzie to essentially control its construction program, or his father, then Mackenzie's partner, who was highly respected by Mackenzie as a course designer, and who worked closely with him in California at the time, or several others, fine golfers some of them, and close to the project, including Marion Hollins - played no part in the 'give-and-take' thrust of design ideas normal with any architect's on-site endeavours, no matter how great he is?)

Which brings me to the course routing situation.  No, I personally have not seen Seth Raynor's original plan for the course, but it was clearly described in a detailed way to a group of us in 1978 by Bill Edgar (W.A. Edgar, 1909-1997), and I again raised the subject with him in 1990, when his astute golfing mind and memory continued to be sharp and clear.

Bill Edgar had studied a copy of Raynor's plan of Cypress Point with teammates, in a private home in Colorado in 1974 (Colorado Springs I think, for you sleuths), when he represented Australia in an international seniors teams' event.  Bill was a great and thorough gentleman, a fine, always amateur golfer, a decorated Australian, and had a deep interest in golf with a scythe-like analytic mind for golf holes wherever.  This is what I personally recall from Bill's discussion of the plan he'd studied, because it fascinated me (I wrote up notes that evening):

*The drawing was in two colours - black and red pencil, and was signed;
*There were no contours shown, but land features, treestands and the coastline and (then) roads were drawn;
*It carried the date X'24, and Bill noted that the use of a Latin numeral was surely uncommon with most people at that time, and suggested that Raynor was a man of letters;
*There were several yardage dimensions shown on critical land-use components;
*That it was apparently agreed in the 1974 discussions with teammates familiar with Cypress Point that Raynor seemed to have placed the clubhouse on a ledge seaward off the top of the knoll, allowing the 18th green to be quite a lot higher than Mackenzie's final location for it, and influencing the opening tees also;
*The drawing clearly showed a similar 14th, the par-3 15th, 16 as a short par-4 with a narrow shute driveline, then open, towards the 18th fairway, but the green shown where it still is;
*Holes 17 and 18 were broadly planned as at present, but Hole 18 was longer - perhaps 395 yards;
*That except in detail of some par values and hole extents, the course plan by Raynor was remarkably like the final Mackenzie layout in the corridors and zones used.

This clear description by a fine, interested golfer was the basis for my suggestion that we might be a little cautious in contending that Mackenzie paid absolutely no attention to Raynorˇ¦s routing plan (which he clearly knew well) in devising his own for this fantastic site.  My comment was simply intended to respond to a claim in this forum that it was only Mackenzie who had any input in Cypress Point's somewhat unusual layout.  The majesty of Mackenzie's vision for how the site was exploited was never queried.

But we know that Marion Hollins discussed Raynor's plans with Mackenzie; we know Samuel Morse, Hollins and others were sufficiently happy with the Raynor layout that it may have been implemented had he not died; we know from Mackenzie himself that Raynor had 'discovered' Hole 16's sublime natural context for a golf hole, had discussed use of it with Hollins, and, by inference anyway, the complexion of the routing jigsaw around that specific situation, both ways, in the coastline format available.

Seth Raynor is acknowledged as a fine course routing designer.  Before Bill Edgar's close description to us of the plan he'd pored over with golfing friends in Colorado, I had scant knowledge of Raynor's work, but had been an enthusiastic student of Mackenzie's oeuvre over many years already.  So it intrigued me that some 2-year earlier plan seems to have shown a Cypress Point layout essentially similar to what was eventually realized on the point, and obviously it sticks in the memory of an architect with my deep love and interest in golf courses going back 45 years.

There has been a wealth of discussion generated on another forum about the simple cautionary comment I added to a far longer article about course routing matters.  Some contributors are knowledgably open in their reaction to that comment, and sensibly do not automatically preclude a broader picture of Cypress Point's genesis, now shrouded in time.

Whatever the substance of the Raynor plan for Cypress Point, a copy of it (possibly onetime in the possession of Marion Hollins?) definitely still existed in 1974, was studied then, and discussed with us over tea at Commonwealth Golf Club in 1978 by a great golfing gentleman not given to prevarication or exaggeration.  I have no reason to think it does not still exist.

Tony Cashmore
http://www.cashmoredesign.com

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who routed Cypress--Dr. Mac or Raynor?
« Reply #42 on: March 22, 2005, 06:32:37 PM »
Mr. Cashmore -

First of all, let me thank you for your response. All too often here we criticise works by other without actually hearing from the individual in question.

Now, as far as your article, don't you think it's a bit premature to say, "let's give credit where credit is due" when you don't in fact have actual physical evidence? I can't tell you how many times I have come out of meetings and my impression was diametrically opposed to that of my business partner. I don't think it's good enough to simply say, so and so saw the plan and I believe him. There is a reason that heresay is not generally admissable in court. People have different recollections of the same event all the time. I would have no problem if you said Raynor may have routed Cypress Point as it presently exists, but to say otherwise with the current state of the evidence seems a bit presumptuous, if you ask me.

Again, I thank you for your contribution and truly and sincerely hope that you continue to offer us material we can learn from, in this instance and others, but, absent the drawing Mr. Edgar reviewed, I hope you understand why many of us remain skeptical.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who routed Cypress--Dr. Mac or Raynor?
« Reply #43 on: March 23, 2005, 06:04:58 PM »
I'm bringing this back to the top as I can't believe no one other than Geoge has commented on Mr. Cashmore's very articulate response to those doubting the existance of a Raynor routing plan. Again thanks to Tony for taking the time to register on gca.com and provide his side of the story.
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Who routed Cypress--Dr. Mac or Raynor?
« Reply #44 on: March 23, 2005, 06:27:20 PM »
Pete,
Mr. Tony Cashmore's recounting of the events certainly are interesting and open a many possibilities for future research. But as I have insisted all along most of this information is by word of mouth from an accounting of an event several years ago. It's not that I doubt Mr. Cashmore's words, I have only questioned his method of writing about it without mentioning that it was relayed to him by someone who claims to have seen the plan (I'm told a credible source, named W.A. Edgar) or the fact that it isn't solid fact. At this very moment, it's all hearsay.

I guess I'm trying to stress caution to the validity of it all until the proof of this plan is in fact discovered, intepreted and then published.

Until then, it ceases to exist.

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who routed Cypress--Dr. Mac or Raynor?
« Reply #45 on: March 24, 2005, 09:20:03 AM »
Mr. Cashmore -

I had not seen your post until this morning. I too would like to thank you for responding and clarifying some of the points in your article.

As you no doubt noticed from the thread above, the "lost" Raynor routing has been a hot topic on these shores for a while now.

Bob
« Last Edit: March 24, 2005, 09:24:23 AM by BCrosby »

T_MacWood

Re:Who routed Cypress--Dr. Mac or Raynor?
« Reply #46 on: March 25, 2005, 11:53:54 AM »
A fascinating story. The map appears to reside in Colorado...my question, is it there via a Raynor connection or a MacKenzie connection or another connection. Do the Roman numerals ring true with a Raynor plan?
« Last Edit: March 25, 2005, 12:07:49 PM by Tom MacWood »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Who routed Cypress--Dr. Mac or Raynor?
« Reply #47 on: March 25, 2005, 11:56:47 AM »
Tom,
Quite obviously Raymond Haddock was the first thing that came to mind. He lives in Colorado. But if that was the case, Tom D. would have been all over this long ago.

T_MacWood

Re:Who routed Cypress--Dr. Mac or Raynor?
« Reply #48 on: March 25, 2005, 01:12:38 PM »
Tommy
I was thinking the same thing.

Gib_Papazian

Re:Who routed Cypress--Dr. Mac or Raynor?
« Reply #49 on: August 09, 2005, 01:43:35 PM »
The recounting of the tale rings true. This is a bit like what happens when a pedantic academic comes across a tidbit of information that flies in the face of a pet theory.

I stand by my original thoughts. To think that Hollins - who had the deepest respect for Raynor - would not have had a hand in the final routing is absolute poppycock.

To suggest Mackenzie would not have taken a hard look at plans drawn up by the greatest architect of the era is an implausible  hallucination.

I believe every single word of that post above. It is probably hanging on a wall somewhere in a private home - doubtless by some bemused architecture-phile/collector who lurks on this site  . . . . knowing that only he has proof of golf's Dead Sea Scrolls.

Remember kiddies, The Great Bahto found C.B.'s original plans hanging on the wall in a Southampton radiator shop. . . . . .

Funny how the staunchest opponents of the truth  ;) happen to be writers of books about Mackenzie.

While we are on the subject, I guess we all forgot about Jack Fleming. Remember him? Ring a bell? Think maybe he had something to do with the final product?

Trust me, he did. I have been friends with his son for many years.

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