How did they do it?

[Mark_Fine]

How did some of the dead guys do it?

Take Flynn for example - In 1923, in addition to his routine consulting, finishing of 1922 jobs and preparing for 1924 projects, stuff going on at Merion,...etc. he was working on ten courses including Atlantic City, Brinton Lake, The Cascades, Cherry Hills CC, Denver CC, Kittansett, McCall Field, Columbia, Friendship, and Yorktown where he designed 36 holes.

How did he turn out such great courses with such limited time on site?  Even if he had owned a private jet, he couldn’t have spent more than a several weeks on each project (do the math).  

I just had lunch the other day with Gil Hanse and if he and his team get a few courses going they have all they can handle!  C&C would say the same.  

Thoughts anyone?
Mark

[Dave_Miller]

How did some of the dead guys do it?

Take Flynn for example - In 1923, in addition to his routine consulting, finishing of 1922 jobs and preparing for 1924 projects, stuff going on at Merion,...etc. he was working on ten courses including Atlantic City, Brinton Lake, The Cascades, Cherry Hills CC, Denver CC, Kittansett, McCall Field, Columbia, Friendship, and Yorktown where he designed 36 holes.

How did he turn out such great courses with such limited time on site?  Even if he had owned a private jet, he couldn’t have spent more than a several weeks on each project (do the math).  

I just had lunch the other day with Gil Hanse and if he and his team get a few courses going they have all they can handle!  C&C would say the same.  

Thoughts anyone?
Mark

Mark:
It is my  belief that the dead guys, like Flynn, would do the plans and others would oversee the construction to these plans.  
Wayne Morrison where are you?  Wayne would probably have the correct answer where Flynn is concerned.
Best,
Dave

[Mark_Fine]

Dave,
Flynn clearly did the plans and had others do construction.  But on this site, don't we always talk about the hands-on approach to design and the need to constantly be on-site throughout the construction process to get the little details and nuances right.  Isn't that what leads to great golf courses?

In 1923 in the example I posed, Flynn could not possibly have been on site at all those golf courses for very long, surely not through their construction.  Yet many of them turned out to be great golf courses.

Get my point?
Mark

[Mike_Sweeney]

How did some of the dead guys do it?

In addition, they did it without the benefit of topo maps or aerials.

[wsmorrison]

When I first posted the list of courses that Flynn was working on or opened in 1923 and that you restated here, I mentioned that he was working in the same geographical area on a number of these and some of this work was minimal such as at Columbia and Friendship.  It is likely Flynn only presented plans to Denver Country Club.  They were not fully implemented.  He must have stayed on site for a time (Flynn's daughter thought he was away for a month or so) because he was also doing Cherry Hills.  I'm sure lit was local contractors that did the work; Mark might know better.

Presenting this one year without explaining what was going on in other years can be very misleading.  

In 1919 Flynn was working on one design (Washington Golf and CC) and at Pine Valley.  

In 1920 Flynn was working on Lancaster, Westchester (construction only) and Pocono Manor

In 1921 Flynn was again working at Pine Valley and Town and Country in DC

In 1922 Flynn worked at Bala GC (redesign and added 9), Glen View in Chicago and Monroe CC (9 holes).

It could well be that Flynn was working on some of the courses at various stages of development or that opened in 1923 during the preceding leaner years.  We should also look at the later years.  A mere snapshot of 1923 is not meaningful in of itself.  And we really don't know in what stages these courses were in.  

In 1924, Flynn was working on or finishing 5 designs (Eagles Mere New, Marble Hall, Pepper Pike Club and Philmont North, Norfolk CC); one construction job (Burning Tree) and one regrassing (Gulph Mills--to the dismay of their superintendent)

The next few years were busy:

1925: seven 18-hole courses and 1 9-hole; 2 in Phila and 4 in Florida

1926:  5 18-hole courses; 2 in PA 2 in FL

1927: 5 designs, 1 small redesign; 2 in DC and 2 in PA

After this, things got slow-13 courses in the next 4 years

I think Mark is trying to say that Flynn was not on site as much as we think and that he might have been more prolific.  I don't think this is true at all.  The geographical component and the absolute numbers of designs and lesser quantity of work would certainly allow more time on site than probably anyone of his day or today.

Again, Flynn did the design and Toomey and Flynn did much of the construction.  This firm handled a lot more of the work than a pure architect would.  Someone, either Flynn or his construction foremen (Lawrence and Gordon) would be there at all times.

It is not important to compare Gil's ability to handle work with Flynn's.  As Bill V points out, the permitting and other matters that modern architects and construction guys have to spend time at was not a matter of concern for the dead guys.

Mike,
Flynn used topographic maps in his design and construction process and pretty early on too.

[wsmorrison]

"How did he turn out such great courses with such limited time on site?  Even if he had owned a private jet, he couldn’t have spent more than a several weeks on each project (do the math).  "

Isn't several weeks on site for each project plenty of time?  It certainly was more than most ever spent on a job.  I don't see your point at all.  Ross did 30 or 40 courses in 1923; that is hardly enough time to pick your nose at each site

In the end, a lot had to do with how hard and how fast Flynn worked at coming up with routings (see Tom Paul's description of Flynn at Cascades).  He also was very efficient in every aspect of design and construction.  He planned his courses carefully and then had them built to exact drawings.  This enabled them to get it right the first time (unless Dick Wilson was getting away from the plans--like he did at Shinnecock and they had to redo his work).  Frederick Taylor (time management guru) probably had a great influence on Flynn.

How did he turn out such great courses?  To start with, he was a great architect!

[T_MacWood]

"Frederick Taylor (time management guru) probably had a great influence on Flynn."

Wayne
Interesting theory, did Flynn work with Taylor at some point?

[Tom_Doak]

So how did he manage his time, really?  How many days was Flynn actually on site at those courses where he did such a great job?

I'm guessing it's fewer days than most people here want to believe.

[Phil_the_Author]

Yet despite there lack of time and cross-country traveling, how did the greats control construction of their designs so that so many today can say, "That is a typical so-and-so..."?

One of the dsign methods that were employed at this time, and seems to always be forgotten, was the preponderance of using plasticene models. Tillinghast and others used them a great deal. It allowed them to leave a three-dimensional means of what they expected to see when they returned, and this was especially important for grenn and bunker complexes.

When the NGLA was being built, and there were the monthly articles in Golf Illustrated about each new hole, they usually showed a photo of the holes plasticene model.

At Baltimore's Five Farms, Construction was held up for two weeks because Tilly could not come to Baltimore and create the models to work from due to a wrist injury.

In addition, as far as topographical maps go, there area few references of Tillinghast requesting topographical maps of potential sites before he could give finished designs, those these are mostly toward the end of his career.

Hey Tom, how much would you enjoy molding plasticene models by hand for your crews to work from?    

[wsmorrison]

Tom MacWood,

I know that Wilson and probably Flynn (he was working with Wilson closely at the time) were connected to Taylor at Sunnybrook (Taylor rebuilt the greens and Flynn redesigned the course) and Pine Valley (Taylor rebuilt some greens).  Flynn and Wilson were heavily involved in turf experiments, construction experiments and the like.  Taylor was doing some groundbreaking research on green construction.  I am certain that living in the same city they must have known each other.

Tom Doak,

We don't have any archival records that show how much time Flynn spent on a given job, except the Pocantico Hills course for the Rockefellers.  That was in the late 1930s and there wasn't much else work around.

Flynn had a turf farm across the street from Lancaster and was the consulting architect there from 1920 until his death.  There were so many changes by Flynn to that course that I'm certain he spent a lot of time there.

Flynn went back to the Cascades just about every year and made numerous changes over the years, he spent a lot of time there.

Flynn's work at Merion is well known--or it will when Tommy and I finally finish the book.  Tommy can you hear me?  Flynn spent a great deal of time on site.

Flynn's daughter said he spent at least a month in Denver working on Cherry Hills and Denver CC.

Flynn worked many months at a time over a period of years in Florida according to his daughter (she went with him)  so he surely spent a lot of time on site on those courses, especially Indian Creek and Boca Raton.

I am curious why you suspect that it is fewer days than most people want to believe.  Given the number of design iterations that he drew to scale, as much as seven pre-construction drawings for each hole that we know of on one course, it stands to reason he did spend a lot of time at a number of courses when he could.

Manor Country Club, Monroe, Pocono Manor, Normandy Shores--probably not.  But the top tier of courses seem to correlate to the amount of time we think he was there.  We don't have extensive business records so we admittedly are relying on circumstantial evidence in some but not all cases.

[Tom_Doak]

Wayne:

I'm just dividing the number of weeks in a year by the number of courses these architects produced.

For myself, last year I finished two new courses, started two more, went to look at several new prospects and did the routings for two or three that we'll build in 2006.  I also traveled a bit with my family, spent time in the office, did interviews, etc., etc.  Bottom line is that I didn't spend much more than 30 days on site on any of those projects ... but that was enough to make them pretty good.

How could Flynn spend a couple of months at each of seven courses he did in one year?  Did he just make one long intensive visit at the start of the job and then leave it in capable hands, as MacKenzie did?  Did he spend any time at home?  I'm just curious ... if anyone has figured out a better system for controlling their work product, I want to know about it.

[T_MacWood]

Wayne
Taylor died in March 1915, when was Wilson (or Flynn) involved at Sunnybrook? I know Ross designed Sunnybrook, construction started in  the Spring of 1914. From what I understand Taylor built some of the greens using his unique methods, did Wilson help him? The course was actually completed after Taylor's death.

I don't believe Taylor built any greens at Pine Valley. After Taylor died, Robert Bender who worked for Taylor assisted with some greens at PV. I would have thought Bender was also involved at Sunnybrook.

[TEPaul]

"I'm guessing it's fewer days than most people here want to believe."

TomD:

I wonder how many days most people on here want to believe? Some on here probably have some pretty odd ideas about that. We don't really know how much time he spent on any site as all his business records and schedules (if he schules are gone). All we have is most all his original plans. Flynn had a pretty well organized company though from the mid-1920s on---had some good people working for him as you know---and the company certainly did seem to follow his plans during construction.

Tom MacWood:

It's hard to say how well the Wilson's or Flynn knew Frederick Taylor. Wilson certainly was impressed by the quality of the greens at Sunnybrook though. And all of them did belong to PVGC during its construction, including Taylor. They did know each other, and for other reasons Taylor was a well known man. Obviously Taylor didn't actually rebuild greens at PVGC but six of them were rebult to his method. Apparently Crump planned to rebuild all of them to Taylor's method but Crump died too and the rest were not done. The Taylor green construction method was no secret---the method was published very comprhensively.

[Mark_Fine]

My point is that in busy years, guys like Flynn or Tillinghast could not have been on site much at all.  Like Tom Doak said, just do the math.  

If Flynn designed Cherry Hills CC and Denver CC and was only out there once for maybe a month or two, how much time is that on site?  Would any of the guys we admire today take on two projects like that today and spend that little amount of time on-site?  

Tom Paul, I think it was you that told me that C&C took three months trying to figure out just one hole at Hidden Creek and I don't think it was because of permitting issues.

I don't think there is an answer to my original question?  I'm just amazed that they could turn out the volumes of quality courses they did with such little on site supervision by themselves.  Yes some of their drawings were detailed but they weren't CAD construction documents either.  Maybe those are overrated  

By the way, when did Toomey partner with Flynn?  I thought it wasn't until 1923?  If that it true, that makes Flynn's most productive year even more interesting.  
Mark

[TEPaul]

Mark:

This apparent fixation on here with on-site time is getting pretty funny, actually. Again, we don't really know precisely how much time Flynn spent on site on any course's construction because, again, all those records, if they even existed are gone.

But what we do find is that on some of his courses the real similarity, or perhaps the exactness of what got built to the plans we have is pretty interesting--pretty impressive.

It seems as if you and others on here are starting to imply that if an architect doesn't spend a certain amount of time on site the course can't be of a certain quality. That kind of assumption or approach is not the way to go about analyzing or studying some of these architects, in my opinion.

Some of them were simply "quick studies" and some weren't but that doesn't necessarily translate into quality or lack of it. Different architects simple have different modus operandis, different ways and methods of doing the same thing.

I think architects like MacKenzie, Fowler, Flynn, Doak, perhaps Alison were and are simply "quick studies" while others such as Crump, Coore just aren't. The latter type seem to just want to spend more time on site and I don't believe that makes them any less good or less talented than the others, they simply have a different way of doing things and they recognize that and adjust to it.

I know Coore's that way because he's said so in no uncertain terms a number of times. Read his interview on here about that if you want to see what I mean, and yesterday I was talking to him about other things and I told him there was a course on Long Island he just had to see and he said he knows he should and it's amazing to him that he spent so much on site time on the courses they did on Long Island and never found the time to go see that course. He said he guesses he just gets like a little mole on-site on some of these projects.

Personally, I feel Bill Coore just loves land---he loves spending lots of time on it, walking all over it endlessly and he loves getting to know it so well he can pick up and use little things about it others may've never even noticed.

So don't try and make too much over the importance of on-site time for all architects because so many do it so differently. A man like Crump couldn't possibly have done what he did in six weeks on site or six months and that's probably exactly why he spent six years on site and still wasn't finished. But look what he accomplished in the end---that's what important---not just the actual amount of on-site time.

And one needs to look at other types of modus operandi too to explain things better. If you compare an architect like Flynn to Coore you'll see the latter always relied heavily on plans and drawings that he produced for construction while an architect like Coore would actually prefer not to even use them if he could get away with it!

[Mark_Fine]

Tom,
It is interesting to hear you now take the approach that time on-site studying the land and its details is not necessarily critical to great golf course design.  That is what you are saying isn't it? If you have a great "quick study" architect, they don't need to be there as much?  I hope Tom Fazio is listening as that will make him feel better about his workload.
Mark

[TEPaul]

Mark:

I'm not sure what it is you're trying to get at here other than some type of standardization or direct correlation with all architects regarding a particular amount of "on-site" time! Do you really think you can do that? Do you really think that works? I think history can show us that is not the case. It would seem that more on-site time would always be better than less on site time but I don't think one can necessarily prove that some degree of less on-site time means that any architect cannot create a good golf course. I'm sure plenty of examples can be found were a lot of on-site time didn't produce a very good golf course too.

Attempting to "standardize" or "generalize" about creating golf architecture probably never will be a particularly good idea, Mark!

[Tom_Doak]

Tom:

I'm not sure what Mark's point is, but mine was exactly as you have implied, that different styles and different amounts of on-site time can produce good results for different architects.  I was just trying to figure out what Flynn actually did.  Early in my career I used to sell myself based on time on-site, saying it was what the dead guys did; but once I started to understand how they really operated, I dropped that reference.

Wayne seemed to be saying early in the thread that he spent a lot of time on each project ... and if he really spent a month on the two projects in Denver, that's a fair amount of time for one long visit ... but it's still only 15-30 days per course, which isn't more than most modern architects spend.  I DO believe that he would get more figured out in one 15-day visit than in fifteen one-day visits ... with the latter schedule it must be very difficult to get back into the feel and flow of that particular project, which I suspect is one reason most modern architects turn out similar designs from one place to the next.

Being a "quick study" doesn't necessarily mean being plan-oriented; like Bill Coore, I'd just as soon not draw a plan to begin with, and even if I do we seldom look at it during construction.  Pacific Dunes had a routing and sketch-plans of about four greens; at Barnbougle we rerouted the entire back nine without ever putting anything on paper!  This works just fine if your associates are comfortable in the field and you trust them to understand your ideas [or to call you if they have a question].

[ian]

Tom,

Don't you do it by having great associates that you can trust, carry out your instructions in the field?


Wayne,

Didn't Flynn have Lawrence and Gordon and others to assist him?


Associates know what the pricipal/architect expects to see built, in fact many construction superintendents build up that same knowledge with continuous interaction.

All this relates back to the quality of people in the field, when the architect can not be on site.

[wsmorrison]

Tom Doak,

I think you've made a very important point about Flynn's work methods.  On his eastern courses, he had a rather large construction team, part of Toomey and Flynn, with 2 foremen, Red Lawrence and William Gordon (right you are, Ian). These guys worked on most of Flynn's plans and there were probably a lot of efficiencies to their implementation of Flynn's plans.  He apparently was on site long enough to develop the detailed plans and then came back periodically.  I'm sure he didn't come back periodically to Denver in fact it appears that he never did go back (right, Mark?).

Maybe it is a myth to some extent, but the owner of the Cascades property recounted very clearly how fast Flynn was able to look at that very difficult site and come up with his routing although an incredible amount of engineering (removing 300 yard ridges, the Swift Run most of the length of the property, removing huge boulders and other matters that were pretty challenging in the mountains of VA in the early 1920s.

I'm not an architect so maybe I'm talking out my arse here, but I thought 30 days on site to come up with a routing and design plan was probably a long enough time (empirically proven) and much more than many of his contemporaries.

As for his Florida projects, for the most part they seem to be done in just a few years where he worked on them while wintering in Florida and spending several months a year for a few years working down there.  Again, his work seems to be centered in geographic pockets which would make time management more efficient.

Tom MacWood,

Here's what Wilson wrote Oakley (Mar 22, 1915) upon Taylor's death:

"You probably saw of the death of Mr. Frederick Taylor, who has been our very good friend and I know you will appreciate that this is a real loss to all of us."

Hugh Wilson arranged with the executor of Taylor's estate to have his experiments published, and referenced to by Tom Paul.

[Mark_Fine]

Guys,
The question I was asking is the same one Doak asked, how did they do it?  Again that is what I am getting at - how did they do it?  What did a guy like Flynn do to handle that many projects in that many different areas in such a short time frame?  I'm not looking for any standard formula, just some opinions.  

However, having said that, I also agree with what Tom Doak said in that when you study some of these older architects, you realize they weren't on site themselves as often as we (at least I) thought they were.  It appears Tom Doak came to that same conclusion himself.

Mark

[Mark_Fine]

Wayne,
Our replies crossed in space at the same time.  Yes, we believe Flynn only made one trip to Denver.  
Mark

[wsmorrison]

"What did a guy like Flynn do to handle that many projects in that many different areas in such a short time frame?"

How many projects are you referring to?  I mentioned that the number of projects Flynn was involved with was small in the previous and following years.  How does the number of courses that Flynn worked on during these years compare to his contemporaries?  I always thought that his work load was on the light side compared to most.  In comparison to Ross it was downright tiny.

[T_MacWood]

TE
It is an interesting theory, that Taylor impacted Flynn's organization...although the connection seems a bit tenuous. On a related note, three of the most prolific architects in history may have also had direct contact with Taylor--Ross, Tillinghast and Colt. Do you think he impacted their organizations as well?

"Apparently Crump planned to rebuild all of them to Taylor's method but Crump died too and the rest were not done."

Who did Crump share this plan with?

[TEPaul]

TomD:

Now that you've explained things in your last post do you mind if I just get right behind you so that perhaps Mark will begin to believe some of the things I've said?   Mark seems to just believe those he calls "the experts" and discounts the very same things from the rest of us! Clearly, he believes you to be an expert and so do I.

As for Flynn and on-site time---again, Wayne and I just don't know how much time he actually spent on any project for the reasons I've given---we have no real records on that type of thing--those things were thrown away when he died in 1945. All we have is his plans which are clearly detailed and efficient---and we do have enough evidence and documentation that he was an architect who both liked and basically insisted that his courses be constructed to his detailed plans---in a way they were quite similar to Ross's Walter Erving Johnson hole drawings--detailed drawings and lots of detailed written "construction instructions" on the side of them! Frankly, his modus was to do a number of iterations of holes and we have many of those iterated progressions but then it's clear to see that the hole basically got built exactly to his final iteration.

Why did Flynn develop that modus? It's clear to us from our single best source from the other side on a constructed course, the Rockerfellers, that Flynn and Toomey were cost efficiency experts that way and he presented and sold himself and his company that way! Some of the text correspondence between Toomey and Flynn and the Rockefellers is pretty funny that way---they seemed to be trying to "out cost efficient" each other!  

And it's pretty clear to see that Toomey and Flynn were not exactly toadies that way. I mean here you have some letters where they're telling the richest and most powerful family on earth that the Rockefellers don't need to be telling THEM how to be cost and quality efficient in golf architecture. To be honest with you we believe that approach really did get the attention of some of the richest and most powerful businessmen of that era who became Flynn or Toomey and Flynn clients!  

I doubt it was any kind of marketing BS on his part either and we feel that to be the case from plenty of documentation from Merion East and West when Flynn also served as the greenkeeper there. Hugh Wilson believed and mentioned in writing a few times that Flynn was probably the most efficient, the most sophisticated in cost accounting on a broken-down basis as any greenkeeper there was---and clearly others felt the same way and depended on him for that as the on-ground "go to guy" when they were forming what was to be the USGA Green Section.

Wilson bragged that Flynn could account for every nickel spent on any green on Merion East and West.

Flynn's method of design and construction was constantly iterating plans for both construction and the cost efficiencies of it.