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George_Bahto

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Re:Best Cape holes - Risk/Reward
« Reply #25 on: March 05, 2005, 03:32:55 PM »
......... and the definition of the word "CAPE" is .............???
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Best Cape holes - Risk/Reward
« Reply #26 on: March 05, 2005, 03:37:19 PM »
George Bahto,

Please inform these misguided souls that it's at the green end, and not at the tee.
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George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best Cape holes - Risk/Reward
« Reply #27 on: March 05, 2005, 03:45:09 PM »
at Fishers Island the Cape hole is hole 14 - no risk carry off the tee but you play as close to the hazard (Pond) as possible to shorten the length of the next shot ..... the green sits in low lying land ..... a notation neat the green in the FI club history: "a team of horses may have disappeared here during construction"

Hopefully Donnie Beck will add more

gb
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best Cape holes - Risk/Reward
« Reply #28 on: March 05, 2005, 03:50:31 PM »
and a plug for Neil Crafter's very fine magazine "Golf Architecture":

Gib and I just did an article on Cape holes that will appear in the next issue (unless we get dissed by Neil - hah)

his mag should be published in "hard cover" it is so good

this is a must magazine for those interested in a golf architecture publication!

Neil Crafter
golfstra@senet.com.au
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best Cape holes - Risk/Reward
« Reply #29 on: March 05, 2005, 04:05:42 PM »
Fishers Island Cape

watercolor by Charles Ferguson:

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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

ChipOat

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best Cape holes - Risk/Reward
« Reply #30 on: March 05, 2005, 06:44:40 PM »
George Bahto:

1) I join Pat Mucci and others in lamenting that the majority of golf architecture enthusiasts seem unwilling or unable to focus totally on the green complex of a hole when considering it for "Cape" status.  I understand that this is likely a result of the attention given to the current #14 at National which coincidentally happens to include the oft-misconstrued risk/reward teeshot that CBM's original Cape routing (mostly) did not.

Had CBM changed the name of #14 from "Cape" to something else when he relocated the green, this confusion would probably not be an issue.

Suggestion:  Please build a golf hole that is an excellent example of of the risk/reward tee shot over water but whose green complex is completely unlike a true Cape.  Give it a name other than "Cape" - I suggest either "Bahto" or "Confusion".  Then arrange for this hole to become world-reknowned and circulate the true story as to why you built it.  Within 1 or 2 generations, this myth regarding the characteristics of the tee shot on a Cape hole will have evaporated and our children's children will be doing threads on GCA that debate the merits of different "Bahto" holes around the globe.

2)  #14 at Fishers is, in fact, one of my favorite risk/reward tee shots in all of golf because of the reduced length and improved angle of attack that results from a tee shot hit as close to the left-side hazard as possible.  You know FI far better than I, but I've never felt that the green really protruded into the water.  It's a marvelous hole, but is it a really good example of a Cape?
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TEPaul

Re:Best Cape holes - Risk/Reward
« Reply #31 on: March 05, 2005, 07:12:23 PM »
Chip:

How've you been pal?

It's a very good point you make about the "cape" hole at Fishers Island. It's strategy for a cape hole that's quite different and it's a simple strategy but a highly effective one (coming as close to the left side as possible for the shortest shot in). Attempting that kind of thing regularly surely can be dicey. But in a way it really isn't particularly necessary on that hole. I've always wished the second shot to the green was a bit more demanding  or dicey somehow to really put a bit more pressure on placing the tee shot along the left. You'd have to hit a pretty crumby approach shot regardless of where you were on that fairway to have the water on the approach be of much concern.
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dsilk

Re:Best Cape holes - Risk/Reward
« Reply #32 on: March 05, 2005, 07:44:36 PM »
I wonder if #11 at Secession would qualify as a cape hole.. It is certainly a risk- reward type shoy off the tee- bite off as much as you feel safe with but it's all carry over water.  I am asking Mr Brown's and others opinion- without the rancor over Secession that developed in another thread.
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ChipOat

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best Cape holes - Risk/Reward
« Reply #33 on: March 05, 2005, 07:58:22 PM »
dsilk:

Sorry to hassle you but see the posts above to confirm that the tee shot is not a factor in discussing a true Cape hole.

George Bahto is the acknowledged (by most) authority on such things MacDonald/Raynor/Banks.

TEPaul:

Since you have declared yourself physically unable to play golf such that currying your favor will no longer earn me a round or two with you, there is no further motivation for me to pay attention to GCA any longer.  Alas.
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ChipOat

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best Cape holes - Risk/Reward
« Reply #34 on: March 05, 2005, 08:10:26 PM »
dsilk (again):

Checked out the Secession link; never played there but the pix of #17 make it look like a serious "Cape" green.

From your comments, I believe you know the course well.
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George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best Cape holes - Risk/Reward
« Reply #35 on: March 05, 2005, 08:54:31 PM »
Chip: that hole at F/I is really genius: the controlled direction and controlled length of the tee shot!! The hole is long and you have to "hit it" to get within a decent iron distance and to get as close to the water as you can manage is such a "risk."

For those who have not played it, there is a lot of deception built into the hole (the lack of perspective).

The closer to the water the shorter the club in, mixed with, the longer you hit it, the shorter shot in - and the green is certainly not large.

Chip, I may be wrong but I think when built that green was in a darn swamp area (now Pol. Correctly know as "wet-lands"). Raynor referred to it as his Cape hole at Fishers Island

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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best Cape holes - Risk/Reward
« Reply #36 on: March 05, 2005, 09:06:38 PM »
The definition:

I think what we have here is an evolution of the term "Cape" hole.

One hand we have Charlie Macdonald "inventing" it (his words, not mine!) - the true and original NGLA cape green jutting out into Bull Heads Bay on 3 sides, a concrete retaining wall and the green aslso surrounded by a huge 270 degree hazard of sand. (he later moves green) - hence th confusion.

On the other hand I can certainly can go along with the "modern" depiction and definition of a "Cape" hole - the diagonal risk off the tee (even though the literal definition does not apply). For years that's what I understood until I found Macdonald and Whigham's article that defined what they were building at NGLA).

An evolution of the term!

Chip: I'll think about building something weird - I like "Confusion"    -    the Confusion Hole - very cool! (needs about 4 options, I guess - worth a shot) .......  oooops, that was the Mackenzie hole - 5 options!

gb
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Mike_Sweeney

Re:Best Cape holes - Risk/Reward
« Reply #37 on: March 06, 2005, 05:11:51 AM »
George,

With the updated "Bahto definition" of a Cape hole including the drive across water at an angle and the green surrounded by 3 sides by water and/or sand, wouldn't Mid-Ocean's be the "perfect Cape?"
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Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best Cape holes - Risk/Reward
« Reply #38 on: March 06, 2005, 07:56:44 AM »
Cypress Point's #17 is really really good and rarely comes up as one of the best in the world.  The hole offers far more in terms of strategy than just how much you can bite off of the corner.  Everything, right up through the orientation of the green is superb.  Frankly, the grouping of trees makes the hole very very clever.  I played there again last week so I'm hesitant to make this statement without some more thought, but it might be the best cape hole I've ever played.   Add in the setting and it is as good as a "cape" hole gets!
Mark
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Brent Hutto

Re:Best Cape holes - Risk/Reward
« Reply #39 on: March 06, 2005, 07:56:53 AM »
OK, here's a layout of the fourth hole at True Blue Plantation. It is probably my favorite hole on that course and I've always had the word "Cape" in my mind when I recall it.
I take it that this hole does not meet the actual definition of a Cape hole.

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Brent Hutto

Re:Best Cape holes - Risk/Reward
« Reply #40 on: March 06, 2005, 08:00:22 AM »
Quote from: Mark_Fine on March 06, 2005, 07:56:44 AM
Cypress Point's #17 is really really good and rarely comes up as one of the best in the world.  The hole offers far more in terms of strategy than just how much you can bite off of the corner.  Everything, right up through the orientation of the green is superb.  Frankly, the grouping of trees makes the hole very very clever.  I played there again last week so I'm hesitant to make this statement without some more thought, but it might be the best cape hole I've ever played.   Add in the setting and it is as good as a "cape" hole gets!
Mark
What a coincidence, Mark. I had literally just put down my new copy of Shackelford's book on Cypress Point a few minutes ago after reading the parts about the seventeenth and eighteenth holes. I came away from the book thinking that seventeen had to be the best hole on the course from the perspective of hard-core strategy lovers and you immediately post a similar comment.
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Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best Cape holes - Risk/Reward
« Reply #41 on: March 06, 2005, 08:47:42 AM »
Brett,
I'll have to pull out Geoff's book and read exactly what he wrote.  That is funny you were thinking the same way.  The hole is really that good.  Like most all great holes, they have to be studied a while to really be learned.  #17 is a good example.
Mark
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Brent Hutto

Re:Best Cape holes - Risk/Reward
« Reply #42 on: March 06, 2005, 08:54:40 AM »
Geoff has a paragraph on pg. 171 outlining the strategic nature of the hole as he sees it. But I like the quotation from Robert Hunter on the same page...

Quote
There is no better hole anywhere than this one which twice crosses the sea. The very long hitter may keep well away from the sea but he must hit 300 yards to open up the hole. The short hitter may take the same route, but he will have three shots reach home. The medium and very accurate hitter will play close to the sea with his tee shot and play a strong iron or spoon over the sea to the green. A fine group of cypress trees and a nest of bunkers in the center of the fairway at about 270 yards from the tee force the players to choose a definite route to the hole and keep it.

And on the facing page is a photo of Alister MacKenzie watching a player hit the tee shot.
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Mark Brown

Re:Best Cape holes - Risk/Reward
« Reply #43 on: March 06, 2005, 09:45:12 AM »
dsilk

Secession #11. I don't think so - it's a long par four, being real close to water isn't too critical and the green only has hazards on one side, I believe.

No.1 could be considered as a caple hotel you have bite off the marsh and the green is protected on 3 sides.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2005, 12:58:50 PM by Mark Brown »
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Donnie Beck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best Cape holes - Risk/Reward
« Reply #44 on: March 06, 2005, 09:53:31 AM »
On paper the 14th at Fishers looks much easier than it really is. Most people can drive it to the 150 yd marker, but what you don't realize is that the 150 marker is right at the waters edge. Center of the fairway same distance of the tee is about 180 into the green and right side of the fairway is about 200 yds. Drive it off the tee to about 175 out and if you are on the right side of the fairway you are looking at about 230 into the green. Another note. We are working on permits to restore the bunker that use to run the entire left side of the green and wrap completely around the back of the green. It was abandoned due to high tides constantly flooding. We are going to have to raise the floor of the bunker about 1 ft and install drain line to make it function properly when we do the work.
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TEPaul

Re:Best Cape holes - Risk/Reward
« Reply #45 on: March 06, 2005, 12:51:46 PM »
"TEPaul:
Since you have declared yourself physically unable to play golf such that currying your favor will no longer earn me a round or two with you, there is no further motivation for me to pay attention to GCA any longer.  Alas."

Chip:

It does not matter if I play golf anymore---I'll be happy to have you down and I'll walk while you play, you can curry my favor any time you want-- I'm very fond of Indian cuisine, as long as its curried shrimp and rice---thank you very much!
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ChipOat

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best Cape holes - Risk/Reward
« Reply #46 on: March 06, 2005, 06:12:05 PM »
GEORGE BAHTO HAS DECLARED THE POPULAR DEFINITION OF A "CAPE" HOLE TO BE OFFICIAL.  HENCEFORTH, A TRUE CAPE HOLE MUST HAVE BOTH FEATURES OF THE ULTIMATE DESIGN OF #14 AT NATIONAL GOLF LINKS OF AMERICA.  DUE TO OVERHWELMINGLY POPULAR USAGE, WHAT CHARLES BLAIR MACDONALD ACTUALLY BUILT HAS SUPERCEDED HIS ORIGINAL DEFINITION OF "CAPE" IN THE UPDATED VERSION OF THE GOLF CLUB ATLAS DICTIONARY OF GOLF COURSE ARCHITECTURE.

IS THIS GCA'S MOST SIGNIFICANT CONTRIBUTION TO GOLF COURSE ARCHITECTURE??

Pat Mucci:

George Bahto has blessed it - I guess you and I should enter the 21st century.
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George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best Cape holes - Risk/Reward
« Reply #47 on: March 06, 2005, 06:15:57 PM »
Brent:"the fourth hole at True Blue Plantation"

I think that is an outstanding cape hole - very much like the Cape at Mid-Ocean, perhaps with a bit more curl near the green.

Although, not "3 sides" into a hazard (which I don't think we should not take that literally) that certainly is a Cape hole to me ....... and we have the great diagonal problem twice!

I would love to see what the green at Mic-Ocean would look like stripped of the vegetation.
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best Cape holes - Risk/Reward
« Reply #48 on: March 06, 2005, 06:24:08 PM »
Chip and others: wait til you see the new tee at 14-ngla:

The angle of play and the carry to the fairway are going to be exciting.

(I'm working really hard on the new "Confusion Hole" - hah)

Mike Sweeney: I think that if there was any hole built "better" (whatever that means) .... built better than the prototype at NGLA it would be the Cape at mid-Ocean.

Can anyone offer an opinion on an example holes built by Raynor, etal better than the example at National???  (Eden - Short - P-Bowl, whatever) I think there are a few.
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

dsilk

Re:Best Cape holes - Risk/Reward
« Reply #49 on: March 06, 2005, 06:43:02 PM »
Gang,
thanks for the clarification/ education on true Cape hole lineage etc..  I am still a bit confused about the true design nuances however, I think the only way that I will really understand it is to get to NGLA sometime soon to witness it firsthand.

Lamentedly,
ds
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