[Kyle Harris]

This is specifically geared toward Tom Huckaby, but anyone who can answer can chime in too.

Tom and I were discussing the merits of Oakmont and I was attempting to temper the common notion that Oakmont is good because it is simply brutal.

The preconceived notion people tend to have with Pebble is that taken away from the ocean, it's just another course.

I've only seen pictures, and they tend to emphasize the ocean more so than the strategy...

Without sounding condescending, I am asking what's so special about the golf and strategy at Pebble?

[Tom_Doak]

Kyle:

I don't think Pebble Beach is rated highly because of its strategy, but I do think it's rated highly because it is a damned difficult test of golf.  The greens are TINY and severely tilted, so you're just dead if you miss the green on the high side.  It's a windy place.  And there are a lot of hanging sidehill lies in the fairway landing areas.

[Bob_Huntley]

Kyle,

One question. Have you played it?

Bob

[Mike Benham]

My name isn't Tom ...

I'll throw out an item about Pebble that make the golf special with or without the ocean ...

Variety off the tee ... no 2 tee shots are the same, right to left, left to right, there are few shots that may seem to require a straight shot but the slope of the fairway will kick the ball towards the rough in firm and fast conditions ... a few of the tee balls can be played with a choice of clubs depending on the golfers ability or level of risk and the reward for the risk is subtle.

Mike

Ps:  Having never seen or played it, I too may ask the same questions about Oakmont ... but that's the advantage of this site, to learn from others who have ...

[Wayne Freeman]

Kyle-  with all due respect, I think threads like this are ridiculous.  Oakmont is an awesome course for so many reasons-  yes it is brutal, but it's greatness lies in its fantastic design and flow, unreal greens, and incredible history and atmosphere.  Just being there is like walking with the golfing gods..........  and asking if Pebble is just another course if you take away the ocean is to me just as ridiculous a statement.  Pebble is Pebble because of the fact that it is fit into an incredible piece of land, and I'm so tired of hearing people pan this and that about it.  Tell me any other place on the planet you would rather be as a golfer other than on the 18th tee or green.  To me PB is like a great concerto. It starts out rather calmly and builds to incredible crescendos along the way, culminating with one of the best finishing holes in golf. Best for you to go there and experience it for yourself. You will never tire of it.

[Kyle Harris]

Bob,

Nope, haven't played it at all, which is why I asked. I earnestly want to know as opposed to me going, "This place doesn't seem so great, what do you see in it?" It's obviously well regarded, but seems to be a place that you need to play to appreciate fully. Just trying to get a feel for what to look for when/if I ever get out there.

Tom,

Funny you should reply like that, that was the attitude we were attempting to dispell about Oakmont. Kinda sounds like Huntingdon Valley here in Philly with the hanging lies, though I imagine HVCC's greens are bigger, and Pebble doesn't play like it was routed by Jeff Gordon  

Is it just me or do 3 and 16 at Pebble both seem to be underrated in terms of playability? Are those holes victims of being on the same course as 4-10 at Pebble? I've always thought 16 was as near an ideal hole as any (Up there with 10 at Riviera) in that it stood the test of time quite well, and has been resistant to the increase in distance...

[Kyle Harris]

Wayne,

That's exactly why I started this thread... I don't believe Pebble is Pebble because of the ocean.

I just want to know why because the only thing I ever hear about it is "the ocean..."

Trying to be objective is all, not calling for a defense.

[Peter Galea]

What Tom said.
Tiny greens, verry windy. Distracting beauty.
Please don't take the ocean away from Pebble Beach.

[Kyle Harris]

Before I get flamed by the Cali boys for this thread I'd like to say the following:

I've always thought the statement that Pebble Beach is nothing without the ocean was dumb.

Aren't all golf courses nothing without the terrain they are on?

Someone said, "Wow, this would be a nice place to put a golf course... let's do it," and they did.

Chandler Egan made the golf course work.

I've always retorted to the above mentioned statement, "Well then, how do you make Pebble Beach better?"

I never get a straight answer.

So I am asking for the nitty gritty stuff we talk about on other courses. I am talking angles, tee positions, hole locations, etc.

Stuff like, standing on the ninth tee, asking myself, "Do I hug the ocean to get a better angle into the green or do I bail out left and try to hit a good approach?"

This stuff is almost never written about the course and I'd like to hear.

Of course, if this is one of those things in golf where you just have to go out and experience it, and words can't do it justice, I guess I'll have to accept that - for now  

[A_Clay_Man]

Stuff like, standing on the ninth tee, asking myself, "Do I hug the ocean to get a better angle into the green or do I bail out left and try to hit a good approach?"

This stuff is almost never written about the course and I'd like to hear.

Kyle, One of the aspects that the ocean side golf provides are varying conditions from day to day, and even, hour to hour (or less). Which is why your question above, about the ninth hole's drive, is momentarily specific. But, as a rule, the left side of the fairway on #9 is the ideal, because there are a few more level spots to approach from. Did you see Weir's shot there last month? He was 223 on the left side. He hit it to 6 feet. If he had been anywhere else, other than one of those step-like more level areas, he likely would've had 1) a more difficult shot, or, 2) had to lay-up.
Now, it is possible to get over that hill and have one's ball roll all the way down, inside of the 150 mark. If one can do that, the right side is a better angle, but that does flirt with the coastline hazard, should it have too much momentum on the wrong vector. Also, on that line, brings the rock outcrop into play. Right of the rock outcrop use to be fairway. Now, it's thick kikuyu and rarely manicured.

Another really cool subtlety about the ninth is the gathering aspect of the huge front bunker. The terrain slopes counter intuitively away from the Ocean, starting about thirty yards short of that bunker. SO, any shot hit on  line with the right edge of the bunker, and lands slightly short, will be turbo boosted into said deep bunker. A very cool "Gotcha" that Mr. Neville provided.

Much of the magic at Pebble is due to these nuances that change depending on both ground and weather conditions. To acheive magical results, one not only needs to know what these tendancies are, but to trust and execute them when presented.

There is such subtelty on alnmost every inch of the place. That's why you'll hear me give so much sheet to so many who think they know how to toughen the ol' gal.

Ran wrote an article highlighting architectural blunders made over the last century. He included Pebble as having suffered from a lack of understanding, and urged for a return to the old look. The amazing part is, that even having been led down the wrong path, aesthetically, the ol' gal still has plenty infrastructure, to make each round there mysterious and usually inspiring.

[PThomas]

thank you Tom Doak for agreeing with a post I had earlier this week about Pebble's greens being SMALL!!! .......there were people who disagreed with that assessment, by the way

[Steve Pozaric]

Paul:

I had heard about the small greens, but, from looking at them on TV, they did not seem so much so.  However, when I finally got there in person, I was amazed at what they were like in person.  For some reason, 18 has always stayed with me as being so much smaller than TV made it seem.

[Mike Hendren]

Kyle,

Perhaps this thread is insightful:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=16952

Mike

[THuckaby2]

Kyle:

This is a very fair question - one going toward a perception that does exist about Pebble, which is what you stated, and which is fair to ask given the questions I was asking about Oakmont were all about how it surpasses the "brutal/unfun"
 perception that does exist about it - and it's very tough to answer.  A very fair answer to it is Wayne's - that is, why SHOULD one take away the ocean, because it so dominates the experience there one way or the other?  BUT... the fact is also that there is a lot of great golf shots to be had there that ought to please even a Rich Goodale (legendary for his laser-like focus on target and disregard for views and the like).

And the posters so far, particularly Adam, have done a great job of explaining it.  There's not much more I can say.  But I will address the question about #3 and #16.

#3 is a GREAT golf hole.  It amuses me that some people gloss over the start of PB, saying the course doesn't begin till 5, or 6, or 8, or whatever.  On #3, all you have going on is:

a) a damn tough choice to make off the tee.  Depending on your length and what tee you play, the possibilities exist to take it over the trees, or hook it around... and you do want as short a shot as possible into that green, which is a small target indeed.  You have a barranca to clear where failure means 50% possibility of lost ball, 50% of finding it which might be worse given the deep rough.  The fairway banks to the left, such that a hard running shot will continue left, and you also want the approach to come from as far left as possible, given the right is deep rough, and the angle in from the left is shooting up into the backstop part of the green, rather than along it.  Another very valid choice is to hit a shorter club off the tee in a safer shot, to the right... but through the fairway means right rough and a VERY tough shot to stop on the green... the angle from the right is worse... and again, you do want a shorter club in given the green is also very firm on top of being small.

b) then we have the approach itself... beautiful to the max... strategic considerations already stated.  Tough shot to a small target no matter where you leave the drive.

c) then the green... oh man... it is a marvel of subtlety, looks easy but actually is VERY tough to putt.  Adam could describe it far better than I.

Add it all up and this is one damn good golf hole, packed into 360 yards or whatever it is.

OK, that's enough for now - and anyway there was a recent thread on 16 which eloquently stated its virtues and thus underrated nature.

Kyle, there is a LOT going on at Pebble besides the views.  We're lucky here in CA to have quite a few courses along the ocean, and not all of them are great.  Pebble is great, by any definition of the term.  Oh, the views have a lot to do with that, and it remains damn cool to play over and along the ocean.  But hell, 14 is likely the best hole on the course, and the ocean has nothing to do with it.

TH

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

You guys are spending alot of time answering a weak question from a guy who has not even been there. Tom Doak gave the quick and dirty and thats more than adequate. A short version of huckaby is look at 1,3,4,5,6,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,16,17,and 18 and see what is there other than really good solid golf holes.  If one takes the ocean away from 8, 9 and 10 theyare still great holes just not as pretty. The only think wrong with Pebble is the ownership and their management team.

[Mike Benham]

You guys are spending alot of time answering a weak question from a guy who has not even been there.

Tiger - that's the team spirit ... Kyle asked a fair question and as for the fact that he hasn't seen it, so what?  A majority of us have never been to ANGC and there have been ruthless conversations about the course and many have spent an inordinate amount of time discussing Shivas' ability to hit a cut 5-iron off a hanging lie on #13 ...

[THuckaby2]

JB - well, it was very fair of Kyle to ask this question, as he was extremely patient with all of my pressing questions about Oakmont, a place I have never seen, and did a damn fine job explaining it and correct misperceptions I had.

The perception does exist that Pebble is not all that... LOTS of people say either it's all about the ocean, or the non-ocean holes suck, or whatever.... most who play it more than a few times tend to understand the fallacy of this....

Thus in Kyle's case, this is a very fair question.

TH

[George Pazin]

C'mon, Mike, we were discussing Shivas' ability to hit an 8 iron off the hanging lie!

For those who've played Pebble:

What really surprised you about the course the first time you played it? I haven't had the pleasure of playing it (yet ), but I've walked it several times and the biggest surprise for me the first time was the hill leading up to the 6th green. Wow.

[THuckaby2]

Great question, George!

Hmmmm... the first time I played it I was 13 years old so what surprised me was that my Dad was so cool to take me there...  But OK, about the golf course....

Well for a 13 year old kid who had seen the place in countless photos and on TV many times, you can imagine it was overwhelming.  The entire experience was one big mind-blowing blur.

But I do remember this:  the cliff going down from 8 fairway is REALLY DAMN HIGH... don't drive the cart over the Dad.. god dammit... I'm not ready to die.....

My Dad is one hell of a kidder, and thrill-seeker.

TH

[Bob_Huntley]

To improve Pebble Beach one needs to remove the cart paths.


That's all.

[Ted Kramer]

C'mon, Mike, we were discussing Shivas' ability to hit an 8 iron off the hanging lie!

For those who've played Pebble:

What really surprised you about the course the first time you played it? I haven't had the pleasure of playing it (yet ), but I've walked it several times and the biggest surprise for me the first time was the hill leading up to the 6th green. Wow.

Most surprising thing to me is the crappy wooden fence to the right of the 1st tee. For some reason that has always stood out as a very interesting contrast. That fence really helped me relax. It kind of told me to chill out and just play some golf. I was unbelievably excited on the first tee. Pebble was the first noteworthy course I had ever played besides the Black and I really didn't know what to expect. When I saw that fence and heard the car doors slamming behind it I felt much more comfortable. I didn't expect anthing like that at Pebble.

Another surprising thing to me was how little #17 impressed me.I was expecing to be wowed, and I wasn't.

And for one last surprising thing . . .
I had no idea that the place would be as beautiful as it is.

-Ted

[THuckaby2]

Bob makes a great point - the cart paths with their huge curbs are an eyesore for sure.  Remove those and perfection exists.

TH

[Sam Sikes]

The hole that doesn't get enough credit at pebble is #6.  It has aged wonderfully.  It was probably never intended to be reachable, but IMO added driver/ball distance has made that hole better, for me at least.  I doubt ill ever be able to hit six iron to the surface from the rough, but Im human

[Kyle Harris]

In old pictures of #6 (circa 1930), I've seen two fingery bunkers on the left side of the upslope... what ever happened to them?

Also, wasn't it supposed to be a gambling hole anyway? You're right, distance has brought it back to where it belongs.

[THuckaby2]

Sam - the club in question re that famous shot was a 7iron.  At the recent AT&T, I stood pretty near the point from which it was hit and all I have to say is HOLY SHIT.

Kyle - I think you're right, there did used to be bunkers in the hill...

And I concur with both of you guys - making this hole reachable is a huge positive.

BTW, before Goodale steps in and steals my idea again, one of MY* ideas for a fantasy hole was playing from 6 tee to 7 green.  Not reachable in two, no... but sounds like fun, huh?

TH

*in the past he has shamelessly claimed this idea for himself. The man's doddering in old age and is losing his memory.  

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