[JakaB]

Tom, I'm happy to have people disagree and argue and present different views. That's part of being a (former) teacher and a critic, and I think it's great when people challenge what others think and say. I think it's unfortunate on GCA when people degenerate into frathouse fools. It seems to be happening more and more, with GCA threads increasingly dominated by a coterie of guys intent on proving themselves by having to respond 15-20 times in a thread and coming up with a lot of diversionary nonsense. They're succeeding in becoming ridiculous, and as a result, GCA is becoming more of a wasteland.

Brad,

I agree completely...I have never understood how you sit there at your computer and let your magazine and yourself be embarrassed by the conduct of a small number of your raters.  You know full well the people in the industry who log on here everyday...what I guess is that you don't know is how their behavior reflects back on you.  Your hand is on the plug...pull it..

[Jonathan Cummings]

John - the world would be in a hell of a mess if we only reacted based on the least common denominator.  I don't believe in throwing out the baby with the bath water.  There are far too many productive, considerate, effective golf course evaluators (most don't post here) on the rating panels of all the golf magazines.

JC

[JakaB]

Jonathan,

In my post above I was only refering to pulling the plug on the bad raters who expose themselves on this site...not the whole process.  You guys are desperately in need of a code of conduct and I would be willing to serve on any panel that might be needed to put one together.

[Brad Klein]

John Kavanaugh,

we have a code of conduct, readily publicized in our circa 16-page Rater's Handbook and accessible on the golfweek.com public access Web site through the "Architecture" section. I'd be happy to discuss this with you - please check your email and we can follow up.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Vegas is in desperate need of a low profile, fun to play course like Talking Stick.  I just wish Bill and Ben,Tom or Gil or someone would get the commission to do it.

Who would they build it for ?
Who would play it ?

Vegas attracts millions of people a year and they don't go there to get home cooking and plenty of rest ?

The market dictates the product.[/color]  

The problem is water obviously.
Every new golf course has the same problem, obtaining water rights., but, that's got nothing to do with the style of the architecture.[/color]

and the need to build housing around any golf course.
Why is there a need to build housing around any golf course ?

Are you saying that a "stand alone" golf course can't support itself ?[/color]

[NAF]

Pat-

Vegas is filled with golfers, retirees etc.. And unlike South Florida there are very few private clubs. Most offer great deals for Clark County residents in fact.  For example, for me to play Nicklaus' Bears Best costs something like $195.  For my Father in Law it is I believe $90.  Almost all of the clubs with the exception of Reflection Bay, Shadow Creek etc do this.  And they get a trememendous amout of rounds from it.  

Demographics:

6-7,000 people move to Vegas a month.. that is 80k a year and the city/valley will top 2MM people by 2010.  The affluence factor is rising sharply.  More and more people like my parents are going out there to spa, play golf and see shows and not gamble.  It has better food and entertainment than South Florida with year round activity plus the Grand Canyon proximity but of course no ocean.  So golf will always be there.  And more retirees will flock.  My comparison is Phoenix/Scottsdale which I believe boasts better GCA by a multitude than Las Vegas.

Who would build a course like TS?  Well the Paiute Indians built Paiute and I believe a local tribe built Talking Stick as well.  Wouldnt they perhaps look at a natural, low profile design rather than move a ton of dirt typical Vegas course.

Paiute is north of Vegas where there is I'm told easier access to water--for example.  It remains to be seen but this year's bumper rains should help out the Vegas water situation a fair bit.

The need to build housing stems from the fact that Vegas is dominated by new home builders who own a ton of the land in the main part of the valley.  So they build these communities.  It is not privately held, KB, Toll, Lexmar etc all own this stuff.  they don't care about golf clubs on a stand alone basis.

I think a great low profile club that attracts the Summerlin set of people would do very well with Rustic Canyon esque fees.

[THuckaby2]

redanman - I most definitely look forward to your report on it.  There is no one who suffers fools less than you, nor is less impressed by trappings of wealth and pretension... nor who also tells it like it is without care of repercussion.

Your take will be interesting to say the least.

 

TH

ps - as for other exchanges on this thread, well... emails have been exchanged between Mr. Klein and me and at least by me its water under the bridge.  I'll watch my gutter mouth from now on.  

[Matt_Ward]

Tom Doak:

What is the so-called "vision" you say happened at Shadow Creek? To spend $30+ million for a course from ground as flast as the eye can see! Really?

Is that the vision?

Tom -- you need to re-read your own comments on Shadow Creek from your book. Where do you make detailed highlights on any particular hole(s) at the course? Much of the fanfare is tied to the "vision" in building such a palatial testament to man's ability to "overcome."

Pardon me for saying this but the "wow" factor of Shadow Creek is tied to the "hype" it has received simply from the b*lls of Steve Wynn to create something that was never done before. However, let's not confuse building something where no man has gone before with the idea that top quality (meaning top 100 course) golf has actually come from such a site.

The Nevada golf landscape has evolved since Shadow Creek and I'll say this again from a "fun" standpoint which I consider to be a valid element in the standing of any course there are others -- most notably Wolf Creek in Mesquite -- that are further along than the likes of Shadow Creek.

Shadow benefited from the perfect alignment of owner (Wynn) + "hot" designer (TF) + unique town (Vegas) + unlimited resources to create ($$$). Put that equation together and the factor of "ultra-privacy" (at least initially) and you create major "buzz."

I'll say this again -- major kudos to Shadow Creek for the hype but like many things in and around the Vegas area it's the "buzz" not the "depth" that gets top billing and notice.

Ergo -- the continued placement of Shadow Creek among the elite courses in the USA. What's really amazing is that the nature of what Shadow "is" has caused many mis-informed peole that any future type golf courses in and around the Vegas area must follow the "formula" that Shadow started.

[JakaB]

Redanman,

Have you played Shadow before....and what significant changes have they made that warrents you playing again as a rater.....It is top 50 last I checked..

Please accept my apologies if you are just checking it out again as a civilian lover of the game..

[George Pazin]

Is there any chance someone could build a course in the Vegas area that was somewhat sanely priced? My one golf experience there was somewhat shocking.

Can't wait for redanman's writeup on SC....

Tom -- you need to re-read your own comments on Shadow Creek from your book. Where do you make detailed highlights on any particular hole(s) at the course? Much of the fanfare is tied to the "vision" in building such a palatial testament to man's ability to "overcome."

Matt -

I used to think this as well, but after being challenged by Huck, I went home and reread the 31 flavors. The writeup on SC is very comparable to the writeup on the other 30. Each has its own flavor (no pun intended), thanks to Tom's writing skills, but few are explicit in their detail on specific golf holes.

[Matt_Ward]

George:

You missed my point. Tom D's comments are focused on how Shadow came into being. Again -- what is the "vision" that others -- including Tom -- keep harping upon?

I beg to differ. On the other 31 flavors you do get some sense of what holes are indeed unique from an architectural component. Not all I agree but much more than the broad writing elements you see tied to Shadow.

The trap with Shadow is that the mere "vision" is tied to the engineering and the b*lls (by Wynn) to spend that amount of money in such a wasteland setting. That's the story -- plain and simple.

No one ever mentions the quality of holes at Shadow Creek in some sort of category of greatness. Why is that? Because the focus is always on how the course came into being and when it opened initially the amount of privacy / the need to have Steve Wynn "personally" sign-off all guest play.

Exclusivity and the fanfare of how it was built created the "buzz" and the raters who followed often got sooooooo caught up in those elements.

Shadow Creek deserves credit for what is -- it just needs to be kept in context to what it is not -- a superior designed layout IMHO.

Shadow Creek is the golf equivalent of Xanadu from "Citizen Kane" lore.

[Jim Franklin]

Ah Shadow Creek comes up again. I loved it and am playing it again in May. I won't rehash my thoughts again, but I would say it is worth playing at least once. And yes, I have paid to play and been comped as a gambler to play, and as a rater. I think Golfweek has it right.

[George Pazin]

...been comped as a gambler to play...

Damn, now that is saying something!

[Kevin_Reilly]

Hard to think of a place that has changed as much in 20 years.

[JakaB]

Redanman,

Have you played Shadow before....and what significant changes have they made that warrents you playing again as a rater.....It is top 50 last I checked..

Please accept my apologies if you are just checking it out again as a civilian lover of the game..

John

I'm sorry for the tyop, it was to read (and now does) 20 not 2.  Easy to understand your confusion.

Bill

Bill,

The only thing that confuses me is why the Raters Handbook says you can not play any course in the top 50 from either the classic or the modern list as a rater.  I thought I knew you well enough to know you are not playing Shadow as anything but...note: This is a rule that I do not agree with but it is a rule just the same..

[Patrick_Mucci]

redanman,

Pay special attention to the "Merion" bunkers that now reside in Shadow Creek.

[JakaB]

That attitude used to be called "taking the high road" when we were kids; Brad runs a good ship and takes it very seriously. (p.s. I don't/ I'm not suck/ing up to Brad, either, I just don't suck up.)

I really don't think you read the rater handbook either...it is very clear about not playing the top 50 classic or modern as a rater because your time as a rater would be better spent playing a course like Wolf Creek or Cascatta that needs more views....Brad obviously put much time and thought into the handbook and it is really sad when people he respects enough to be raters don't respect him enough to follow the guidelines....I just imagine that by playing the best and most famous course in town when it benefits no one but yourself you are indeed taking the high road..so to speak..

[Matt_Ward]

John:

You make a fair point about raters getting around to other courses. I try to do that because frankly the "herd" mentality simply cherry picks off the "key" courses.

Unfortunately, it is places like Wolf Creek and others that get little attention save for those dedicated and passionate raters / golfers who are not so inclined to follow the same predictable beat of the drums.

I often ask people at these "secondary" sites where they play and often you'll get recommendations worth exploring.

The key comes down to the desire of the rater to go beyond the "usual suspects." Some do -- many don't.

[Patrick_Mucci]

redanman,

You'll understand when you see them.

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