Shadow Creek: over-rated?????

[PThomas]

in other thread Matt Ward stated "How the course maintains a Top 100 status is more likely geared to hype of how it was created than for what is actually there."

do you all agree?

i'm a curious bystander since I haven't played there -- the approx. $700  -- that's not a typo, cause you have to stay in one of their hotels to play there -- green fee scared me away -- but curious to here what people think, since maybe I should take the big gulf and pay  it someday...

[THuckaby2]

Oh jeez Paul, did you HAVE to send us down this road again?

If there is ONE COURSE that has been battled over here as much as any besides Rustic Canyon, it's Shadow Creek.  There's a faction that finds it over-rated, no big deal, boring, whatever.  There's a faction that finds it either a great engineering achievement and thus worthy of praise, and/or a fun, interesting golf course... and the two factions have NO common ground.

Please don't make us go through this again.

In the spirit of peace, I am offering no answer other than the above.  I plea to Tommy Naccarato to do the same.

 

[NAF]

Lets just say this.. Shadow has one of the classiest Directors of Golf/Head Pros.. Mr. Mark Brenneman.  A true gentleman.

[JakaB]

I think you will find in the next Golf Digest it is ranked about right....why it remains over-rated in Golfweek remains a mystery to me...

[THuckaby2]

Lets just say this.. Shadow has one of the classiest Directors of Golf/Head Pros.. Mr. Mark Brenneman.  A true gentleman.

Absolute concurrence there - he's part of what makes playing there so fun.

TH

[PThomas]

mea culpa Huck!!!

feel free to ignore this thread folks if that's the case

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Paul,
Despite Huckaby's pleas I will reiterate that Shadow Creek, while a remarkable engineering acheivement, is a completely over-rated golf course.

I'll say it again:

Repetition-repetition-repetition

Some great holes at #5 and 13.

More repetition.

You can see these same holes at most any Fazio course you like to frequent. Save some money by avoiding the greenfee and black jack tables and enjoy them there.

Huckaby, quit being such a pussy. If you don't like the thread, go on to the next one!

 

[Tommy_Naccarato]

I will also say this.....

Anytime you can get Matt Ward and myself to agree concurrently on an opinion, I would suggest running with it. Its probably going to be pretty accurate.

I say this with the most respect to both sides of the issue.

[THuckaby2]

Paul:

Tommy's opinion is only one.  I disagree.

Tommy - rehashing fights is not the definition of valor... is it?

 

TH

LATE EDIT - Matt Ward's is only one also.  They are both astute for sure, but they also both have their axes to grind.  Just rest assured there is a dissenting opinion about Shadow Creek, and the ratings alone will tell you far more people agree with me than agree with Tommy and Matt.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tom,
Please explain to me about valor in the current Golfweek Top 100 topic.

I would call it more sour grapes simply because Golfweek told you no. Not because the opinons of 300 raters might differ from you views.

So, I'll continue with my rehashing over sordid details of Shadow Creek whenever I feel. That's what the discussion group is all about. Just like you can continue to rehash just how wrong Golfweek has gotten it. (When in fact this maybe one of the best, most accurate Golfweek Top 100's to date.)

It's not perfect, but compared to others, its not bad.

And if you don't like it--simply bypass the thread--that is your decision. What so hard about that? Just bypass it.

By the way, the jist of your original post, by originally leaving Matt Ward out of it shows this is more of a personal thing for you. Just like scheduling the KP Cup on the same weekend as a major Golfweek event.

 

[Jeff Goldman]

Tom Doak gave it a 9, and a few years ago (late 2001/early 2002?) posted a few threads illustrating how specific holes there are great holes.  You might want to run these down if they are still around.

[THuckaby2]

Tommy:

My friend, in all other threads recently, I was just having some fun with friends.  I sincerely had no idea there was this big secret about Pebble Beach, nor did I have any idea what the rules are for GW raters.  It's always been discussed very openly with me.  The fact you seem to believe I have it in me to have such ulterior motives disappoints me greatly, as I would think we've known each other long enough for you to know better.

And yes, I am just crying my eyes out still for Brad saying no to me 5 years ago.  My life is at such a loss because of it.  

Come on Tommy, you're better than this.  Kavanaugh isn't; it's his role in life to play the prick.  You can be caustic at times, but you generally have a much better heart than this.

Rise above, my friend.  There are nice people in this world.  It's not all about petty crap.

Now as for Shadow Creek, for one, I never said GolfWeek got anything wrong. In fact I believe you all have it rated just about right - both Shadow Creek specifically and all courses in general.  I said several this several times in the other threads.  The only thing I gave crap about was the division between Classical and Modern, because it's fun in that you guys have no leg to stand on there.  Jeez, LIGHTEN UP!!!

I also left Matt Ward out of this one, as you say, because I had no freakin' idea what his opinion was of the course... You really believe I keep a file or something about who says what about each course?  Come one, man... You and I have discussed the course many times on here, it's always been primarily you and me.. so to you my plea was directed.  It can't be that fun to rehash old battles.  If you want to do so, then have at it.

And come on... TKPIV is the weekend it is BECAUSE THAT'S ALL THAT WAS AVAILABLE ANY TIME ANYWHERE NEAR THIS.

That really disappoints me.  Yeah, I did that to screw you GW types.

Please.  I saved that freakin' event and have put a LOT of time and effort into it, after Gib relatively dropped the ball.  

I made a very detailed post giving the various options for that event.  I asked for input.  Very little was given.  John Bernhardt asked me to try and change it due to the GW conflict, but it became impossible.  I sincerely wish the conflict didn't exist, but it was either do it that weekend or not at all - for me anyway - until the fall.

See this thread:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=16418

This is very, very disappointing, Tommy.  I'd say you owe me an apology, but it's not true... you don't owe me anything.  

I just though we knew each other a bit better than this.

I also thought you had a bit better sense of humor.

TH

[Matt_Ward]

Part of the issue with "consensus" ratings is that once a course gets "established" it becomes something akin to a member of the House of Representatives -- almost impossible to remove.

Shadow Creek gained something very few new courses are able to do -- it leaped into the highest of levels (top ten from Digest) soon after opening. Much of the fanfare was tied to the actual site itself and the engineering aspecs related to it.

I also think people should re-read what Tom Doak said about Shadow Creek. The marks he gave were also some time ago and the Nevada golf landscape has clearly changed since that time.

Someone has to tell me which holes at Shadow Creek are All-Nevada because the landscape in the Silver State is quite competitive and I don't see anything there that is THAT awesome to be included.

Frankly, I don't see how Wolf Creek says adios because the "fun" element is clearly present beyond what you have with Shadow Creek.

I never said Shadow Creek was not a good golf course but a top 100 designation goes beyond for me. The main frame of Shadow Creek is the incredible story tied to the courses's creation -- not what came from that creation IMHO. I salute Steve Wynn / Tom Fazio for their desire to do what no one before them had done in Las Vegas. But like much of Vegas -- it's the hype and the "buzz" that gets the fanfare not the actual product.

[Bob_Huntley]

By the way, the jist of your original post, by originally leaving Matt Ward out of it shows this is more of a personal thing for you. Just like scheduling the KP Cup on the same weekend as a major Golfweek event.

 

Tommy,

I am sure that you must be having a bad day,  but that crack above is meanspirited and beneath you.

Huckaby followed a consensus and has done a great deal of work for this to happen. Please utter your mea culpas.


Bob

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tommy Naccarato,

It may depend upon where your eye is focused.

Could you point out the strategic repetition ?

Not the visual repetition of the mountains in the backround, and the perimeter mounding and trees in the forground, but the actual repetition in the play of the golf course, the options and the strategy ?

[Brad Klein]

Huckaby,

was it really five years ago? The feeling of turning you down was so good it seems like yesterday.

[John_Cullum]

Man, that's brutal.

Hey TH, I love you baby.

Non Illegitimi Carborundum,
JC

[THuckaby2]

Huckaby,

was it really five years ago? The feeling of turning you down was so good it seems like yesterday.

Glad I can continue to make your day, Brad.  I do so aim to provide happiness.




 

Bob and JC  - thanks.  I too have chalked that up to Tommy having a bad day.  I guess Brad Klein also doesn't take kindly to someone saying, in very good humor, that he doesn't give a rats ass what he thinks.  My feeling is these GolfWeek folks could use a little sense of humor check, but hey, we all have bad days.

TH

[Brad Klein]

Tom, I'm happy to have people disagree and argue and present different views. That's part of being a (former) teacher and a critic, and I think it's great when people challenge what others think and say. I think it's unfortunate on GCA when people degenerate into frathouse fools. It seems to be happening more and more, with GCA threads increasingly dominated by a coterie of guys intent on proving themselves by having to respond 15-20 times in a thread and coming up with a lot of diversionary nonsense. They're succeeding in becoming ridiculous, and as a result, GCA is becoming more of a wasteland.

[THuckaby2]

Professor Klein:

And just how was your comment to me above NOT part of this frathouse scene?

But point taken.

The funny thing in all of this is that I said on here several times already that you all came up with a damn fine list, one with which I really have no substantive disagreement.

Peace to you, sir.

TH

[Pete Buczkowski]

Frankly, I don't see how Wolf Creek says adios because the "fun" element is clearly present beyond what you have with Shadow Creek.

I never said Shadow Creek was not a good golf course but a top 100 designation goes beyond for me. The main frame of Shadow Creek is the incredible story tied to the courses's creation -- not what came from that creation IMHO. I salute Steve Wynn / Tom Fazio for their desire to do what no one before them had done in Las Vegas. But like much of Vegas -- it's the hype and the "buzz" that gets the fanfare not the actual product.

Matt:

Unfortunately "fun" is not the most important element of the rankings, nor is originality or creativity.  You have the same situation over at Tobacco Road - one of the most fun courses you could ever play.  Both TR and WC have something rare in architecture today - truly orginal holes that you can't find anywhere else.  There are enough people who don't take with these types of courses that when you average the ratings together these courses suffer.  And I can partially see where they are coming from; Wolf Creek is hard to imagine as a home course for a variety of reasons.  But man is it fun to play; I surely wouldn't pass it up on my next trip to Vegas.  

Of course this comes from a non-rater so take it with a grain of salt.

Pete

[grandwazo]

Just made reservations for the new Wynn hotel in November 05 for a business convention, hoping to play golf during my stay...does anyone have any pictures or info on the golf course? What are the expectations? Will this golfing experience be as special as Shadow seemed to be when it first opened?  Having played Shadow numerous times since its opening I felt that once the initial "magic" faded, the golf course seemed to become less spectacular, and it became harder and harder to justify the expense (not that it ever really could be justified in real terms, using real money in the real world).  Having played the Desert Inn course once many years ago I will be interested to see if Wynn and Fazio are able to make the golfer feel they are alone on the golf course, surrounded by nature instead of being 200 yards off the Strip looking at housing built back in the 60's which is what the old DI course felt like.  

[Bob_Huntley]

Huckaby,

was it really five years ago? The feeling of turning you down was so good it seems like yesterday.

Brad Klein,

I don't know you, I have never met you and I am sure you are an avid advocate of your method of determining what is good and great in golf course architecture. I would add that your arrogance in putting down Tom Huckaby is a contributing factor in the wasteland that you attribute to the GCA.

What on earth has the chap done to provoke such a cheap shot as made in the above post?

Bob Huntley
 

[Tom_Doak]

Tommy N:  Apparently, on the rare occasion that you and Matt agree on a topic on GCA, it means that you're both wrong!  

Matt:  I haven't been to Vegas for several years, and I didn't even play golf there the last time I went.  But the changing of the "Nevada golf landscape" would have no bearing on my rating for Shadow Creek.  In fact, I would venture to guess that the vision and success of Shadow Creek are directly responsible for the improvement of the Nevada golf landscape since its opening.

[NAF]

As many here know I've spent a lot of time in Vega$ as my wife's family lives and has retired there.  My mother in law tells me the Coyote Springs Project (The PGA is building a huge resort with 6 courses--many by Nicklaus) 40 miles north of Las Vegas is the new new thing (she is in real estate).  I truly hope after playing most of Vegas' golf courses that there is something better to come than Shadow Creek.  I enjoyed the Falls a good deal (although I think the housing will ruin parts of the front 9) and can even say there are some okay places to play in Summerlin but there is nothing above what Tom Doak would rate a 5 here.--my opinion based upon his ratings..

Vegas is in desperate need of a low profile, fun to play course like Talking Stick.  I just wish Bill and Ben,Tom or Gil or someone would get the commission to do it.  The problem is water obviously and the need to build housing around any golf course.

The PGA Club at Coyote Springs will differ:  They've already got water rights (I believe to deep wells) and if there are 6 Nicklaus courses there (I'm sure Tom Fazio will also build one if they want name brand) I hesitate to see any variety in having one designer dominate the landscape.  I'd hope the PGA will give some other archies a shot here at doing some of the courses up there.  I've not seen the land so I can comment on its potential. I can only tell you the Valley is growing that way--north and buy your land up in Coyote Springs soon.  It is a much better investment that people buying hi rise condos on the strip IMHO.

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