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wsmorrison

Origin of Offset Greens
« on: March 02, 2005, 10:31:30 AM »
I began to think of this subject when Tom MacWood was kind enough to post a series of architectural drawings for an identification exercise.  I noticed that the drawings seemed to indicate that a number of designs showed greens directly in line with the line of play, with no offset angles.  This seemed to be true of Banks at Tamarack, Ross at Scioto, Travis at Milwaukee, the Schuykill CC that Kyle showed me, and seemingly on the holes shown in the portion of Tillinghast's drawing of BCC Five Farms.











Some of the Heathland architecture by Colt and Simpson and plans by Behr and Flynn show greens that are offset versus the line of play.  I think this is a great evolutionary step in golf architecture.  What do you think the origin of this feature is?  Certain pin placements at the Old Course would sort of replicate offsets.  Am I way off base here?  Was this a quantum leap in design?  If so, when did it take place?








Bill Gayne

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Re:Origin of Offset Greens
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2005, 10:50:15 AM »
Wayne,

If I'm following you correctly, wouldn't the redan be an example of an off-set green?

wsmorrison

Re:Origin of Offset Greens
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2005, 11:01:07 AM »
Silly me, of course it is!  It is not the first time I've felt stupid, won't be the last.  

Kyle Harris

Re:Origin of Offset Greens
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2005, 11:03:28 AM »
Wayne,

A theory:

I think the answer lies in change of definition in fairway. From Allan Robertson's days until the early 20th century, fairway typically was used describe the best path to the hole... as most variance in the length of grass was boiled down to "Green" or "other." As golf became transported both inland, and to the US, fairway became synonymous with "short well kept grass" instead of "best route."

So, in say, 1880, we have a hole with this amorphous blob of short grass (the left diagram in the picture below) with two routes around a central hazard. The left route leave an approach over another hazard to the green while the right one leaves a clear approach. The right route is therefore the "fairway" as per the old definition.

30 years later, and courses are being carved out of farmland and woodland settings and a decision needs to be based as what exactly constitutes a "fairway" and we get something like the right diagram. A "fairway" of short grass with the less desirable left hand route being even moreso less desirable because there is now a defined grass length difference between "fairway" and "rough." So we get the appearance that the hole follows the path of the center line.

Remove any indication of grass, and those designs you posted look more like earlier courses...


mike_malone

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Re:Origin of Offset Greens
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2005, 11:16:51 AM »
 Wayne,
    As I read this title, I immediately thought of #5 RG. It was very important that we recover that "bowing" of the fairway to the left just short of the green.  It had been lost due to maintenance over the years. The fairway there ,as opposed to rough, sets up a better visual for the second shot and also creates more variety of options for the third shot.

   I want to give credit to Dave Staebler for his work in researching this when we regrassed. These good restorative changes just don't happen out-of-the-blue. They are the product of much hard work. Good work, Dave.

   Now if we continue the fairway beyond the green ,down the hill in the back on the right, we will enhance the "offset" even more.
AKA Mayday

wsmorrison

Re:Origin of Offset Greens
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2005, 11:20:12 AM »
Why don't you just fairway the whole damn course!  You know you want to ;D

wsmorrison

Re:Origin of Offset Greens
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2005, 11:21:40 AM »
Kyle,

Well done.  Interesting evolution of grassing/mowing resulting in fairways as we know them today.  They used to be referred to as "fairgreens"  its no wonder they're called "fairways" today as the way is surely shown and fair, too.

mike_malone

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Re:Origin of Offset Greens
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2005, 11:22:34 AM »
 Kyle,
   
    For #5 RG  it was a wonderful use of the slope already there that "spoke" to a reverse redanish type green. Dave Staebler(that guy again) sees it as a "capeish" hole. I imagine the right side was built up but the left begins quite naturally. So, it is not grass length on this hole that makes it "offset".
AKA Mayday

mike_malone

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Re:Origin of Offset Greens
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2005, 11:25:17 AM »
 Wayne,
     Not a bad idea when you have wonderful movement in the land there should be more chance to let the ball run. But, I think scrufty rough would be ok.
AKA Mayday

Kyle Harris

Re:Origin of Offset Greens
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2005, 11:26:48 AM »
Mike,

I think that attests to the genius of Bill Flynn. His courses almost categorically feature some sort of offset green on one or two holes. I believe he adapted a valued type of hole from Scotland to the ground there... in lieu of using grass as the definer, he allowed the slopes to define the shot and kept the fairways wide enough to not cause maintenance headaches but to give the hole strategic merit.

Tighten the hole on the left side, and you become more penal and take the slope out of play.... widen the fairway all the way down the hole, and the path becomes more important...

To me, cape hole implies that the hole is set up for challenging as much of the bunker fronting the green as possible in stead of using the slope on the left side of the green to feed the ball back to the hole.

Tom_Doak

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Re:Origin of Offset Greens
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2005, 07:49:09 PM »
Wayne:

Go find a map of the National Golf Links of America and take a close look, and then get back to me.

It's astonishing how many offset greens are there.

Kyle Harris

Re:Origin of Offset Greens
« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2005, 12:03:10 AM »
Tom Doak,

The only map of NGLA I have access to is the one reprinted in "Golden Age of Golf Design."

I see three greens that fit the bill... so let me know if I am missing any:

No. 4: Redan
No. 10: Shinnecock
No. 17: Peconic

The other holes seem to have a preponderance of their approach (where not penal in nature) along the centerline of the fairway.

To tie this in with the Seth Raynor thread: Since he was a disciple of CBMac, maybe we could look at some Raynor courses for a similar usage of Offset Greens?

Just from the Pictures in the course profile here on GCA, it looks like Yale has some offset on the 2nd, 8th and Redan 13th...


TEPaul

Re:Origin of Offset Greens
« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2005, 07:44:53 AM »
"Silly me, of course it is!  It is not the first time I've felt stupid, won't be the last."

Wayne:

Don't worry about it---I've always known you're a silly rabbit!

Great observation. There can be so much subtle and sublme meaning in play in greens like that, in my opinion.

One of the finest I've ever seen is PVGC's #12 whose entire green in set off to the left of a large straight fairway with the long axis of the green set perpindicular to the line of the hole. Just that apparently simply arrangement creates so many possiblities both off the tee and in the approach shot to this short hole. How in the world a great architect like Robert Trent Jones could've called this hole weak is just beyond me.

A few other interesting examples of this basic idea are Flynn's #4 hole at Lancaster with a green set off to the right halfway up a hillside with it's long axis in-line witht the fairway.

Another great example is Ross's #15 at Gulf Stream G.C. that had its green set off to the left at the end of a long straight fairway with its long axis in-line with the fairway. This was clearly one of Ross's favorite holes as he wrote about it a number of times. Ironically the club must not have known about Ross's fondness for this hole as they got Dick Wilson to turn the long axis of the green perpindicular to the fairway. It's still a great little short hole though.

A new hole that comes to my mind that isn't exactly set off to the side of a fairway but has it's orientation and long axis turned beautifully is the long narrow raised green of Pacific Dunes's #6.

Flynn's #1 PCC is another one whose green is set off both actually and with a perpindicular long axis at the end of a long semi-straight fairway.

And then of course there's Merion's wonderful little #10 that's the same way---Wilson/Flynn!

All those holes with that basic off-set arrangement either of the whole green or the long axis of it make for wonderful basic strategy of deciding on a tee shot that can get you into a long and narrow approach or a shallow and wide approach depending on your preference.

And don't forget how well that last paragraph is accomplished by the short par 4 that always seems to come up when one mentions ideal multi-strategies---Riviera's #10 with its long narrow green turned on a beautiful left to right axis.

But as to the origin of this type of thing in architecture---what a good question! Is it answerable? How about TOC's #17 green, perhaps the first man-made feature in all of golf architecture??!!
« Last Edit: March 03, 2005, 07:56:39 AM by TEPaul »

wsmorrison

Re:Origin of Offset Greens
« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2005, 08:14:58 AM »
"Wayne:

Go find a map of the National Golf Links of America and take a close look, and then get back to me.

It's astonishing how many offset greens are there."

Tom,

I got a map, took a close look and now I'm getting back to you.  That is interesting.  If I'm not mistaken, they include #2 from the right side, #4 the redan, #7 the roadhole, #10, #12, #14 was in its original form more than it is today especially for longer hitters and #17 from the left.  That is an impressive number of offset greens.

Does it seem that Raynor and Banks had a reduced number of offsets on their courses?  Even the Redan wasn't always offset (Westhampton for example--it isn't at MacRay's St. Louis CC either) nor the roadhole.

Like Tom Paul said, I think offset greens add a lot of interest and the one's Tom listed are some of the best around.  Flynn liked them; in a non-template way  ;) and these are some of the most interesting and fun holes to play.  #12 at Pine Valley is so sublime in the options off the tee it yields and the green melded into the fairway makes for difficult approaches.

Flynn's offsets, including #4 at Lancaster, #5 at Rolling Green and current #1 at Philadelphia Country Club (the green at one time was even more shallow) are fun and challenging--can't get better than that.

It seems that the origins of the offset green may lie in St. Andrews and was later seen at North Berwick and then the Heathlands.  I'm glad CB, Wilson/Flynn and others practiced the design in the Golden Age and it continues to be featured by Tom Doak and others today.

BCrosby

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Re:Origin of Offset Greens
« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2005, 08:36:59 AM »
Speaking of offset greens and TOC's 17th, MacKenzie designed the 5th at ANGC to be a reverse Road Hole.

At the 5th, MacK tried to achieve the effect of a Road Hole offset green with (wild) internal green contours. Think of the right front quadrant of the green as the Road Hole bunker. From that area you have to putt over an enormous ridge to get to any pin located elsewhere on the green. Two putting is pretty much a crap shoot. (Not unlike your chances of getting up and down from the Road Hole bunker on TOC.)

As a bonus, when the pin on the 5th is located on the right front of the green (metaphorically, "in" the Road Hole bunker), you get a non-offset green with very different set of approach shot options.

MacK's/Jones's reinterpretation of the Road Hole offset at the 5th at ANGC is extraordinarily imaginative. A gutsy, great hole.

Bob
« Last Edit: March 03, 2005, 08:56:35 AM by BCrosby »

Kyle Harris

Re:Origin of Offset Greens
« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2005, 09:01:59 AM »
Wayne,

Riviera's tenth if you play it the wrong way...
The Par 5 11th at Whitemarsh plays similiar... and the green is tucked at the corner of Thomas Road and Ridge Pike.

A more modern example would be Lookaway's tenth the long axis of this narrow green runs parallel to the fairway, but is offset by a good 30 yards to the right. It's a 350 yard hole, but you want to hit the tee shot about 190 to get the right angle in.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2005, 09:04:06 AM by Kyle Harris »

TEPaul

Re:Origin of Offset Greens
« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2005, 09:02:15 AM »
When one thinks of an off-set green I guess you can't get much more off-set than North Berwick's #13 (the Pit) with its green set slightly diagonally, dead off to the left at the end of the fairway BEHIND A LOW STONE WALL!!  

Tom_Doak

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Re:Origin of Offset Greens
« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2005, 12:07:08 AM »
Wayne:

Bruce Hepner pointed out all the offsets at NGLA to me a couple of years ago, when we were looking at an old aerial photograph.  

I agree with all of those you listed, and I would have included the first and third greens, also ...

the first fairway runs way out to the right, then snakes around and comes straight in from the center-left;

 the third fairway runs off to the right [toward the ninth tee at Sebonack] and an alternate fairway starts at the top of the hill and runs down toward the green where it is cut off by cross-bunkers.

I seem to remember Lido had a bunch of those offset greens, too; but I don't remember it as a common feature of Raynor's solo designs.

wsmorrison

Re:Origin of Offset Greens
« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2005, 08:32:32 AM »
Tom,

That's about 1/2 the holes at National with offset greens.  That is really interesting.  I haven't seen any numbers like that before in the relatively small sampling I've seen to date.  Flynn seemed to do it on a couple of holes per course with regularity.  

At Atlantic City CC, Flynn probably had the most offset greens on a single course.  On his original championship holes numbers 5 (today's 13),8(17),12(3),13(4) and 17(8) and on his nine-hole course on holes 2 and 6 had offset greens.

JNagle

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Re:Origin of Offset Greens
« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2005, 10:00:49 AM »
Wayne -

"I noticed that the drawings seemed to indicate that a number of designs showed greens directly in line with the line of play, with no offset angles."

Could what you only see on the plan be tricking you into thinking the greens are "straight-on"?  Many of those plans so show details of the green.  There may exist ridges, rolls and various contours that make a golfer choose an angle of attack based on hole locations, wind, etc....  Variety may have also impacted the green aligment.  Take a look at your photo's of the CC of York or think of Tavistock, two great courses in their respective regions each designed by a reputable architect.  The tee shot is rarely challenged, yet the angle of approach (when the ground game ruled) is critical because of the internal contours of the greens.  An overall plan would not reveal the intricacies of the greens.

Angles and offsets provide great challenge and I believe the call for the boldest of shots.
It's not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or the doer of deeds could have done better.  The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; .....  "The Critic"

Phil_the_Author

Re:Origin of Offset Greens
« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2005, 10:41:16 AM »
Wayne,

      Almost from the very beginning of his career, Tillinghast's design philosophy began with the putting greens and especially the approaches into them.
      His philosophy toward greens and their relationship to the rest of the golf course was illustrated by him in an article that he wrote in the journal, The Golf Course, in 1916. He wrote how, “There are people whom we may meet casually whom we forget after going our respective ways, for there has been nothing about them which leaves even the faintest impression behind. We may look into their faces and vaguely recognize a general type; then we promptly forget the face and man…”
He continues saying, “Now we are chatting on golf and not faces, but there is a parallel. A putting green has features just like a human, or, at least, it should have to be worthy of the name. Of course, there are many which are no more impressive than the vacant, cow-like expression of some people, but then again there are some with rugged profiles which loom head and shoulders above the common herd, and the moment we clap eyes on one of these, impulsively we murmur, ‘Ah! There’s a green for you!’”
      He believed that, “The character of the putting greens and their approaches mark the quality of a course to a far greater extent than anything else. No matter how excellent may be the distances; how cunningly placed the hazards, or how carefully considered has been the distribution of shots, if the greens themselves do not stand forth impressively the course itself can never be notable.”
      Tilly felt that, “…those greens which are to be gained by lofted shots from iron clubs should slope more into the shots than those which, under ordinary conditions, are reached by the finish of balls running from wood.”
      He also wrote, “So our first step toward supplying our putting greens with character is the consideration of the type of shot which is to find that green and construct with that thought ever uppermost.”
      The philosophy and practice of Tillinghast in building greens can be summed up in this sentence; “Construct your greens boldly and naturally, remembering at all times from which side of the fairway the approach is to come and the character of the club with which the approach is to be made.”
      But it wasn't just the greens that were important, it was the fairway design and where shots were played into the green from that allowed for the greens to show their character.
      Tilly wrote that, “This simple principle, with elaborations which permit holes to be played in numerous ways, introduced elective play and finesse that was entirely absent before. Hazards built in echelon and greens opening up diagonally to a straight line from the teeing grounds, make the true line play something other than indifferent hitting straight ahead, sauce for goose and gander alike. In brief, the oblique lines make it possible for every class of player to extend shots only to the limitations of power, thus making it easier for the duffer to enjoy golf more, but at the same time calling for greater effort for the scoring of par and ‘birdies’ than in the times when carries were obligatory and greens were faced at right angles and accepting, without great favor, shots from either side of the fairway.”
      Tilly wasn't the first, but throughout his career he made conscious efforts to design holes that provided challenge and beauty together, doing this through oblique angles of play and greens designed to reward the preferred shot into them.

Kyle Harris

Re:Origin of Offset Greens
« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2005, 10:41:48 AM »
May not add much to the thread:

But couldn't every green on Amen Corner at ANGC be considered offset?

wsmorrison

Re:Origin of Offset Greens
« Reply #22 on: March 04, 2005, 10:54:06 AM »
Jim,

That is a very good point, I'm sure glad you architects are on the site to help us laymen.  I did consider the drawings themselves first as evidence but you are right to point out there's a lot more going on than that.  Wind direction, contours and such are considerations and do in fact make one think well and position well in playing a hole of this type.  When the greens themselves are set at an offset if designed properly enhance the effects of topography and wind in the best possible fashion.  

As you say, these sorts of green designs do call for the boldest shots.  

wsmorrison

Re:Origin of Offset Greens
« Reply #23 on: March 04, 2005, 10:58:47 AM »
Phil,

Its going to take me awhile to digest your post in the manner it deserves.  Thanks for putting it together.

You wrote:

      Tilly felt that, “…those greens which are to be gained by lofted shots from iron clubs should slope more into the shots than those which, under ordinary conditions, are reached by the finish of balls running from wood.”"


Tillie wanted the more lofted approach shots to be played into greens that sloped the most into the shot?  That seems a bit counter intuitive.  Man, I'm gonna have to think this one through.

Paul_Turner

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Re:Origin of Offset Greens
« Reply #24 on: March 04, 2005, 11:27:24 AM »
Wayne

I think Mackenzie was one of the very first to use this all the time.  He often liked skinny greens angled to the line of play.  

I believe that Royal Melbourne has good examples.

I'd have to think more about it.  But are these greens rather rare on the ancient Scottish links?  Too tough in the wind and/or baked conditions.  One obvious exception is the great 13th at Prestwick (here the offset is quite sharp).
 
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