Harry Colt in the USA in 1913??

[Bradley Anderson]

Now it would be cool to see if we can figure out the courses he worked on during those trips.

I would suspect that Country Club of Detroit was on his 1911 trip?

[TEPaul]

"June 9 1913. Arrived at Plymouth from New York"


This piece of information is potentially very significant to one part of the chronological puzzle of Pine Valley to do with Colt; essentailly to attempts to complete the provenance of a single important "asset." I will try to explain why later since this information does answer one question but raises others about the "asset" itself or at least who actually did it and how.

I have for years suspected that Colt left North America shortly after spending app a week plus at Pine Valley in late May/early June 1913 but previously there has been no specific evidence that suggested when he left North America and returned to the UK. The only real reason I suspected he may've left at this time is because I have never heard of anything else he did in North America in 1913 after that app date.

Thank you David Moriarty. To confirm this fact it would be good to have a copy of that ship manifest recording Colt arriving in Plymouth on June 9, 1913 (which I suppose would indicate he left North America on app June 4 or 5 and perhaps departed from Pine Valley app June 2 or 3).

[Paul_Turner]

Okay, so why would the ellis island records have exacting information on the 1911 and 1913 trips but have totally no record of the controversial 1914 trip?

Seems quite strange to me.

I say show the manifests...because Ellis Island certainly disagrees.  And their manifests are there for all to see.

EDIT - he also came back to the States on Decembet 31, 1918.

Ryan

I don't think he came back in 1918...can you confirm?

He didn't have any children.

Dave
Thanks for those dates, nice to pin these return dates down.

[JR Potts]

Paul

A 47year old Henry Colt of British ancestry arrived via the Strathfillan from Gibralter on December 31, 1918.  (EDIT - He would have been 49 at this time I believe)

[Phil_the_Author]

Not to throw a wrench into things, but I believe that David's date of "April 23 1914. Arrived at Boston from Liverpool" might be either incorrect or incomplete in its understanding.

Below is an article from the April 12, 1914 issue of the New York Sun which states that Harry Colt was already in Hamilton, Ontario, laying out a course. Some of those ships were pretty fast but I don't see how he could have gone back to Liverpool and then turned around and returned to Boston in 11 days or why he would have done it.



David, you've been really good with the ships manifest information; is it possible that you have the wrong Harry Colt for that date?

What is really fascinating in the article is how it states that "Of late years the English expert has been much in demand and has had to make frequent trips to this side of the ocean in order to fill his engagements."

From what has been presented so far, this would have been his third trip. Though I could be wrong, I think that describing that as being "frequent" may have been stretching it a bit. I'm now wondering if he was here more often than has been thought or known of before this.

[Jeff_Brauer]

When working for Killian and Nugent about 30 years ago, we did some work for Old Elm.  They told the story of hiring both Ross and Colt, unknown to each other, and locking them in the clubhouse for a few days to force them to work together.  If I recall correctly, CBM and/or Raynor actually turned them down, having worked with them at Shoreacres or Chicago and declining because it was so difficult to work with them.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Phil,
I posted that one a page back, along with another one that put him in NY on the 28th of April. In that article he states that just before he left England he was 'advising' St.George's and he also watched Ouimet hit some shots.

Finding Ouimet's itinerary might help square the dates.

[Phil_the_Author]

Jim,

I apologize as I clearly somehow missed it! I came across it accidentally this morning and didn't remember seeing it before and then scrolling through this page to check saw David's post with the manifest dates. He's been evry good searching them out and so i was really taken back by the apparent contradiction. yet I am more fascinated by the idea that Colt came over here more often than we may have previously thought.

What is your take on the phrase "frequent Trips?" Do you believe my interpretation that his 3rd trip might not qualify as being "frequent" as the writer meant it and that there more than three by this time?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Shiv,

I got it kind of backwards. Years later when Shoreacres was developed, by some of the Old Elm members as a second club, they contacted either Ross or Colt (or both) who declined the invite to design SA to avoid dealing with those same people again, not trusting them, thus leading to Raynor getting the job.  It was Ross and Colt dissillusioned by the folks at Old Elm, at least according to the members we worked with, circa 1980 or so.

[Bryan Izatt]

Not to throw a wrench into things, but I believe that David's date of "April 23 1914. Arrived at Boston from Liverpool" might be either incorrect or incomplete in its understanding.

.........................

David, you've been really good with the ships manifest information; is it possible that you have the wrong Harry Colt for that date?

...................................

Phil,

It is the right Henry S Colt.  How many Henry S Colt's would list their occupation as "golf expert".  Ancestry.com is copyrighted, otherwise I would post a picture of the manifest for you.  If you like, I could e-mail it to you.

[Bradley Anderson]

C.L. Allen; W.A. Alexander; C.T. Boynton; E.F. Carry; Stanley Field; C.W. Folds; D.R. Morgan; R.H. McElwee; D.H. McLennan; S.H. Strawn.

Awesome...thank you. This may (or may not...I just don't know yet) be a key piece of circumstantial evidence in this little pet theory of mine regarding the 1913 work at Exmoor just down the road  -- and, in my gut-feel view, a significant differentiator in the analysis vis-a-vis some other courses they both consulted on during this time.

Not sure if this helps but as of June 1923 the firm of Colt, MacKenzie, and Alison credited themsleves in an America advertisement as having designed the following golf courses in America: Pine Valley, Old Elm, Detroit Golf Club (Country Club of Detroit), Kirtland, New Century, Burning Tree, Briergate (Briarwood), Toronto Golf Club, Hamilton (Ontario). They had an office in the Penobscot Building here in Detroit.

Link below

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/GolfIllustrated/1923/gi193b.pdf

[Tom MacWood]

Shiv,

I got it kind of backwards. Years later when Shoreacres was developed, by some of the Old Elm members as a second club, they contacted either Ross or Colt (or both) who declined the invite to design SA to avoid dealing with those same people again, not trusting them, thus leading to Raynor getting the job.  It was Ross and Colt dissillusioned by the folks at Old Elm, at least according to the members we worked with, circa 1980 or so.

The common denominator would have been Stanley Field, nephew of Marshall Field. Stanley Field was the VP at Old Elm, and the president of Shoreacres.

[Bryan Izatt]

Phil,
I posted that one a page back, along with another one that put him in NY on the 28th of April. In that article he states that just before he left England he was 'advising' St.George's and he also watched Ouimet hit some shots.

Finding Ouimet's itinerary might help square the dates.

Jim,

I have a Francis Ouimet, salesman, of the right age, arriving in Dover on April 6, 1914 aboard the Lapland.  That would jive with your article.

[Jeff_Brauer]

TMac,

Thanks for that interesting little tidbit.  I recall going around Shoreacres and seeing houses of all the luminaries, like Swift and Armour around the course.  Fields makes sense, too.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Bryan,
That seems to jive with the Colt interview from the April 28th article. I don't know how long the voyage took, but Colt said he saw Ouimet play several days before his own trip. Ouimet arrived on the 6th, so I don't think it's feasible that Colt had the time to see him play if Colt was to be in Canada on the 12th.  

Phil,
Not necessary, just wanted to save you traveling down a road already driven.  Bryan puts Ouimet at Dover after the 6th so I don't exactly know what to make of that April 12th article. The ship registries that have been posted don't have him arriving earlier than the 23rd of April, so I'm guessing that whoever wrote the earlier article got wind of his trip and were 'scooping' the other papers.

He made three trips, each about one year apart, and that may have been seen as frequent in the 'teens. Perhaps he made a few more, I'll bet that the guys who have been searching the registries will find them if they exist.

[Phil_the_Author]

Jim,

THanks for the information. David has been very good with the manifest searches and so I am glad to see it cleared up...

[DMoriarty]

There doesn't seem to be much doubt that Indian Hill opened in 1914.  And the account of the July 10, 1014 opening of the Indian Hill course from the club's records states as follows:

"The first foursome included Douglas Smith, Arch Shaw, Willoughby Walling and HS Colt, the English architect.  Percival Manchester, Victor Elting, William Hibbard and Chick Evans made up the second foursome.  We are indebted to Chick Evans, Jr. for his recollection of those early days. ..."

Dave,

Your initial premise - the date of Indian Hill's opening - is not quite clear cut.   According to the Chicago Tribune the "formal opening" of Indian Hill was on May 1, 1915.   The article mentioned that "the club" had opened too late in the last year "to attract general attention" save for social events, and that "the course was put to very little use."  So it doesn't sound like they had already had any sort of ceremonial opening.    They could have, but if they did it was under the radar.

The article also stated that a number of changes were made by Donald Ross between the end of the 1914 season and the formal opening on May 1, 1915, and describes some of the holes.   No mention of Evans or any celebs playing at that opening.

Evans would played a well publicized round at Rockford on Sunday, July 12, 1914 (with different players) but I haven't seen any mention of the round described by in the blurb above.   

Also, for what it is worth, one of the articles mentions that Evans suffered from heat exhaustion on Saturday, July 11, at Freeport. 

[Jeff_Brauer]

Shiv,

You talk about Chick Evans and his memory being shot.  I have told this story before, but my first project at KN was a redo of the old (and by then defunct) Edgewater Course on the north side, and turning it into the Robert Black at the corner of Pratt and Western in 78-79. Evans had been a member there for years.

At the grand opening, ,my job was to pick Chick up at his apartment around the corner on Daman Ave.  It was a one room efficiency second floor flat he shared with his wife.  Both were in their 80's at the time.  I was suprised how modest the place was and will never forget that when I picked him up, he had a golf net strung up in the place and his wife was sitting in a chair next to the wall and behind the net while he took practice shots.  The bed was a fold up type at the other end of the room.

He was very amiable, and had a few stock one liners (when getting out of the car he told the police officers he "was only playing nine today" and so forth.  He did tell a story about putting a Spalding Dot golf ball in the cavity of an old willow tree every year to honor his mother.  Since we had re-routed the course from E-W to N-S, there was only a 50% chance that tree was still standing but he wanted to find it.  We did and sure enough, when I reached down the hole, I was able to pull out 50 year old Spalding Dots.

So, he was able to remembers some things, although I would tend to agree (from my memory of that day) that he had probably forgotten a lot.  Still, he struck me as the prototypical golfing gentleman, even at his advancing age, and it seemed very important to him to be that way.

[Bradley Anderson]

I have this from the Old Elm Club Report of Board of Governors dated October 17, 1914

Do you have the names of the Board of Governors?  I'm 99.9% certain W.A. Alexander was one, but that's about all I'd know off the top of my head...

C.L. Allen; W.A. Alexander; C.T. Boynton; E.F. Carry; Stanley Field; C.W. Folds; D.R. Morgan; R.H. McElwee; D.H. McLennan; S.H. Strawn.

5 of the 9 were Exmoor guys:  Alexander, Boynton, Carry, McElwee and Strawn.  At least 3 were Onwentsia members:  Field, Folds and McLennan.  I haven't figured out Morgan yet...

Here's a really interesting, searchable book I found that lists all the members of all the clubs (both golf and non-golf) in Chicago in 1910:

http://books.google.com/books?id=n3s3AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA377&lpg=PA377&dq=%22C.T.+Boynton%22+exmoor&source=bl&ots=OKS-fymEfv&sig=cscDVSoojpnmkfnPLKlRdG03_os&hl=en&ei=dH3lTNLrC4yr8Aa6-qDPDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22C.T.%20Boynton%22%20exmoor&f=false

Sorry, that was a misspell. It was actually the legendary David R. Forgan, winner of the first Western Amatuer  in 1899. I believe Onwentsia was his home club before Old Elm because he was a friend of Whigham and that would have been the likely place for those two to hook up. I remember reading somewhere that when Walter Travis would come to Chicago those two would team up and kick everyones ass.

[Joe Bausch]

Shivas

I'm not sure if Colt went to Chicago in 1914.  I know Dan Moore was skeptical of a 1914 reference to Colt in one of the Chicago club histories. Hamilton was designed on that 1914 (third) trip, but I'm not sure about others (I'm losing track of all this over the years).  As the newspaper states, he did three trips: 1911, 1913 and 1914.  So he definitely returned to the UK between 1913 and 1914.  

In 1914, I'm not sure if he returned to Pine Valley or Old Elm or the other courses he worked on during his 1913 trip.  

I assume he must have visited Toronto GC in that 1914 trip (a course he designed in 1911 and revisited in 1913) because it's so close to Hamilton.  I find it a bit hard to believe that he would have come all the way across the Atlantic, into NYC and only worked on one course (Hamilton).  WW1 broke out in June 1914 so there was still ample time to visit other placers.  But is there evidence that he visited and worked at other clubs during that 1914 trip?

There's a letter in "Some Essays on Golf Course Architecture" from the club secretary (or equivalent) of Hamilton GC from just after WW1.  The letter basically invites him back to Hamilton to review the course which he hadn't been able to see because of the war.  So I think barring the war, Colt would have intended to make further trip across to North America.  But as it turned out,  there was so much work cropping up now in the UK that Colt never came back and his younger partner went back instead.  And Alison's 1920s reports on Pine Valley, Toronto , Hamilton and Detriot are all at the clubs.  (I'm not sure if he ever visited Old Elm)

I wonder about Colt and Garden City?

Looks like Colt did visit Garden City in 1914.  This from the April 28, 1914 edition of the Evening Telegram:

[Joe Bausch]

To me, this doesn't say that Colt was at GCGC in 1914.  To me, in 1914, it says (1) that he previously made a tour of GCGC (with no indication of when that tour was) and (2) that, in 1914, he's in Toronto.

It may be a perfectly reasonably assumption to conclude that he visited GCGC in 1914, but let's be clear that based on this article, it would be an assumption, not a fact.

Shivas, you may be right.  But if I was a betting man, I would go with this being from 1914.  This article fits the timeline quite well with him landing in Boston.  The weekly reporters in these papers, IMO, did not rehash old material.  Golf reporting was hot in those days and talking about something from the previous year isn't as likely as that being something quite recent.