Harry Colt in the USA in 1913??

[TEPaul]

Shivas:

I suspect the USA has gotten into digitizing so many of those old ship manifests from that era due to the ever increasing interest of Americans in their ancestory from abroad. I'm not so sure the UK has such an interest, and I frankly did not realize the UK had digitized incoming ship manifests from that era but obviously they have unless Tom MacWood made it up. I would love to see one posted on here and Harry Colt's on May 18, 1914 would be great to see.

[TEPaul]

Bradley:

That is some very interesting stuff about Colt and Ross working together for a number of days on the design of Old Elm. Matter of fact, that might be about the only example I've ever heard of where Donald Ross actually actively partnered with another architect and certainly including one who was not even from the USA.

[Bradley Anderson]

I have this from the Old Elm Club Report of Board of Governors dated October 17, 1914

Do you have the names of the Board of Governors?  I'm 99.9% certain W.A. Alexander was one, but that's about all I'd know off the top of my head...

C.L. Allen; W.A. Alexander; C.T. Boynton; E.F. Carry; Stanley Field; C.W. Folds; D.R. Morgan; R.H. McElwee; D.H. McLennan; S.H. Strawn.

[Bradley Anderson]

Bradley:

That is some very interesting stuff about Colt and Ross working together for a number of days on the design of Old Elm. Matter of fact, that might be about the only example I've ever heard of where Donald Ross actually actively partnered with another architect and certainly including one who was not even from the USA.

It does seem like it may have been more of a true collaboration than what we may have interpreted after the latest set of Colt drawings that have been posted here. But I have read somewhere that Colt got Ross' name wrong - leading one to assume that if Ross had not made enough of an impression on Colt to get his name correct, well then maybe they didn't work that closely afterall? Who knows for sure?

[Bradley Anderson]

I think it is so cool that they laid sixty thousand feet of drain tile. When I was kid working on Old Elm I actually repaired some of those tile lines. I would dig up a broken tile and flush it with green dye, and then poke around further down the lines to see where the green dye came out - thats how we traced some of those lines.

I think we vastly underestimate the sophistication of construction in those days.

[Bradley Anderson]

If you search the LA84 archives you'll find a ton of stuff on Alexander. He was a very important figure in golf. And he played a key role in establishing the agronomic practices that protected Old Elm from Poa invasion while the creeping bent was just getting established there - one of the few clubs in the country to succeed at that.

[Bryan Izatt]

Ooops, slight correction on the Carmania dates.  It departed Liverpool on April 14, 1914 and arrived in Boston on April 23, 1914.  I misread the page where Colt was listed as the arrival date and not the departure date. 

If he arrived back in Liverpool on May 18, then he must have left the US (or Canada) around May 9.  That'd make two 9 day trans-Atlantic trips to provide for 15 days in North America.  And, with a few days land travel to get to Brookline, Hamilton and Montreal.  Quite a quick tour with the wife in tow.

 

[Tom MacWood]

Shivas:

I suspect the USA has gotten into digitizing so many of those old ship manifests from that era due to the ever increasing interest of Americans in their ancestory from abroad. I'm not so sure the UK has such an interest, and I frankly did not realize the UK had digitized incoming ship manifests from that era but obviously they have unless Tom MacWood made it up. I would love to see one posted on here and Harry Colt's on May 18, 1914 would be great to see.

I did make it up, and I have no idea when Colt came and went in 1911, 1913 or 1915.

[Tom MacWood]

I'm sure you are quite serious...you've always expressed a tremendous admiration for Indian Hill and its history, similar to your interest in PV and Merion. I'm hopeful you'll get an opportunity to play the latter two.

[Tom MacWood]

I'd rather be a child than a whore.

[DMoriarty]

Here are the travel dates I have on Colt from the Shipping Manifests:

March 17, 1911. Arrived at New York from Liverpool (Toronto listed as destination.)
April 11, 1911. Arrived at Liverpool from New York

April 7 1913. Arrived at New York from Liverpool (Chicago listed as destination.)
June 9 1913. Arrived at Plymouth from New York

April 23 1914. Arrived at Boston from Liverpool (Montreal listed as destination.)
May 18 1914. Arrived at Liverpool from Montreal

[JR Potts]

Unless I'm missing something, www.ellisisland.org only shows the 1911 and 1913 arrivals...no sign of a 1914 visit anywhere.  Which, of course, leads me to believe it never happened.

His wife, Charlotta C. Colt, accompanied him during the 1913 trip.  It appears to be her only trip to the states.

[JR Potts]

Dave:

Where's this 1914 trip coming from?  Anything on the Internet or in print to support it?

[JR Potts]

Okay, so why would the ellis island records have exacting information on the 1911 and 1913 trips but have totally no record of the controversial 1914 trip?

Seems quite strange to me.

I say show the manifests...because Ellis Island certainly disagrees.  And their manifests are there for all to see.

EDIT - he also came back to the States on Decembet 31, 1918.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Ryan there are three independent newspaper articles that place Colt in the US in mid-late April of 1914. The mainfests would be icing, the cake is baked.

[Bryan Izatt]

Here are the travel dates I have on Colt from the Shipping Manifests:

March 17, 1911. Arrived at New York from Liverpool (Toronto listed as destination.)
April 11, 1911. Arrived at Liverpool from New York

April 7 1913. Arrived at New York from Liverpool (Chicago listed as destination.)
June 9 1913. Arrived at Plymouth from New York

April 23 1914. Arrived at Boston from Liverpool (Montreal listed as destination.)
May 18 1914. Arrived at Liverpool from Montreal

David,

I can see and confirm the three arrivals.  Where are you sourcing the return trips to England?  Can't find those.


Ryan,

I got the 1914 trip through ancestry.com  His wife was with him in 1914.


Shivas,

His Chicago contact was one Wm. Hiller at Monadnock Block.  A famous landmark still?

In Toronto he stayed at the King Edward Hotel - he was traveling in style. 

Strangely on the first two trips, his occupation was Secretary.  In 1914, he was a "golf expert".  See what a little experience will do.

[JR Potts]

How and why did Ellis Island miss it?  What ship was he on?

I find it strange, that's all.  Especially since he was here for such a short time.  Why would he have brought his wife?

[Jim_Kennedy]

I take it you're a younger man, probably unmarried. 

[JR Potts]

I'm married, that's why I can speak on this topic.  Henry S. was 44. Did he have kids?  Wife would take two trips in one year across the Atlantic...the second for merely 15ish days?  My wife sure wouldn't do it....which is nice.  Like I said, seems strange.

[Bryan Izatt]

Ryan,

See post 45; it was the Carmonia.

It's not on Ellis Island because that is New York;  the ship arrived at Boston, not New York.

[JR Potts]

Makes sense.  I concede.

[DMoriarty]

Ryan,

I think ellisisland.org only has Port of NY arrivals.  In 1914 he sailed to Boston, ship name Carmania.  His wife was with him on the 1914 trip as well, but I don't think she was with him on the 1911 trip.    Why would I make this up?

Bryan,

 I used Ancestry.com for the return trips as well.


EDIT.  Sorry if already covered.  I missed some of the above. 

[DMoriarty]

For what it is worth, in 1914 he is also listed under Canadian Passenger Lists (arriving in Boston on same ship.)  The answer is "Yes" to question "DO YOU INTEND TO PERMANENTLY RESIDE IN CANADA?"

The answer is "No" to the question "HAVE YOU EVER BEEN IN CANADA BEFORE?"

[Jim_Kennedy]

As Brian's post explains, you now know why you haven't found it.

Remember the time frame, the Euros were arming themselves, Aus/Hun annexed Bosnia, big trouble was brewing in the Balkans, and war was imminent. No one was going on any pleasure cruises for quite some time.
Hubby was traveling in fine company, nice hotels, fine dining, and plenty of time for the missus to do some shopping for things she probably couldn't get back home, with a nice conversion rate of one pound British equalling $5.00 American.

You think she was staying home?      

[Bryan Izatt]

David,

Thanks, finally found them.  Their search engine needs some work.

Strange that the 1913 Mrs Colt is 5 years younger than her husband, but the 1914 Mrs is the same age as her husband.