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T_MacWood

Re:Harry Colt in the USA in 1913??
« Reply #25 on: October 07, 2005, 11:13:31 PM »
Colt was busy in 1919...Porthcawl, Southerndown, Wimbledon, Worthing, and St. Andrews-New among others. I suspect his work at Wimbledon and St. Andrews were a priority. 1920 was also very busy. I'm pretty sure from memory that Alison worked at Hamilton...in fact isn't Hamilton the reason he came to N. America?

Ian Andrew

Re:Harry Colt in the USA in 1913??
« Reply #26 on: October 07, 2005, 11:19:44 PM »
Tom,

Alison did Hamilton! .... this is new news to me, but facinating all the same.

I will have some time over the holidays, and I will ask the club if I can go through the architectural correspondance.

If they let me, I will post all that I can learn from that visit.

Ian
« Last Edit: October 07, 2005, 11:20:37 PM by Ian Andrew »

Paul_Turner

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Re:Harry Colt in the USA in 1913??
« Reply #27 on: October 08, 2005, 05:40:41 AM »
Hawtree's 1914 dates are wrong.

I think Tom M has it about right.  

There were 2 visits to the USA in 1911 and 1913.  Toronto is the course we know he visited both times since he left reports and plans. I don't think there were any more visits perhaps 2-3 months each time.

There's a letter from Hamilton asking Colt to return after the war, which he never did: too busy in Europe.  Not sure if Alison did much at Hamilton since the course was built to Colt's plans (before more recent redesigns).  Alison did redesign about 3 holes at Toronto in the 20s.
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

TEPaul

Re:Harry Colt in the USA in 1913??
« Reply #28 on: October 08, 2005, 06:55:47 AM »
I can definitely put Alison around Philadelphia in late 1920, probably Nov or Dec, and it looks like he was probably still around or nearby in the winter and into the early spring of 1921 (March or April of 1921).

But it's instructive to know that apparently Colt never returned to America after about mid-1913.

Dan Moore

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Re: Harry Colt in the USA in 1913??
« Reply #29 on: November 16, 2010, 04:33:17 PM »
I have seen the same reference in the Indian Hill clib history. It is the only reference I have seen which indicates Colt was in Chicago in 1914.  I have wondered if they meant Ross who worked with Colt at Ols Elm in '13.
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

TEPaul

Re: Harry Colt in the USA in 1913??
« Reply #30 on: November 16, 2010, 05:36:13 PM »
Shivas:

Those are all good questions, and you're right it sure does seem difficult to really pin down Colt's whereabouts and itinerary on his two or three or four trips to North America. Someone on here at some point said Colt was here in 1914; I think it might've been Paul Turner but I cannot remember if he mentioned where he was.

My own interest with Colt's whereabouts has basically just been Pine Valley and to some extent Sea View and perhaps Merion. I know he was at Pine Valley for about a week solid and perhaps a bit more in the end of May/beginning of June 1914. I also have a reference probably via a Tillie article that he was at Sea View around that time and probably with Hugh Wilson who was definitely at Sea View at that time. And then there is a letter from the early 1920s from Colt to Wilson in which he mentions it's been so long since they've seen one another he hopes Wilson remembers him. I'm just about positive that Wilson stayed with Colt in the spring of 1912 when in the heathlands and interestingly Colt mentions at the end of that early 1920s letter to Wilson to please remember Mrs Colt to Mrs Wilson. I know Mrs Colt was with him in 1913 and for Mrs Colt and Mrs Wilson to have ever met must have been during that spring/early summer of 1913; I don't believe they were close to having another opportunity to meet one another other than in the late spring/early summer of 1913 when Colt was definitely around Philadelphia/New Jersey. I have a feeling the Colts stayed with the Wilsons at that time and I have also heard that Colt did see Merion and perhaps made some suggestion about it but I'm afraid that has never been well documented that I'm aware of.

But if Colt was over here in 1914 that was definitely the last time he came to America.

It also seems to me that the partners of Colt, Alison, Mackenzie very much had their particular regions and the other partners sort of stayed out of them. I also have for years had the distinct feeling that the partnership brought Mackenzie in for the basic reason they probably thought it far better to have him working with them than against them.

By the way, the reason Colt wrote Wilson in the early 1920s is he was looking for some information on agronomic research that was in one of the early USGA Green Section Bulletins. Wilson wrote Piper or Oakley to see if they could supply those Bulletins to Colt along with a wry remark that went something like----"Well, now it looks like they are beginning to finally depend on us."

Both Wilsons (Hugh and Alan) and Piper and Oakley had tremendous respect for both Harry Colt and Hugh Alison and as much as gentlemen as superior architects. They also mentioned Mackenzie once or twice and that he had stopped into see Piper and Oakley in DC but it sounded like none of them knew him very well.

It also seems logical to assume that for Britains approximately towards the end of 1914 and beginning of 1915 it was definitely not a good idea to travel the Atlantic until perhaps the beginning of 1919. Remember the RMS Lusitania? It went down to U-Boat torpedoes in May 1915 in less than 20 minutes within sight of what is now the Old Head GC, Kinsale, Ireland. 1,900 aboard and 1,200 died.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2010, 06:00:33 PM by TEPaul »

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Harry Colt in the USA in 1913??
« Reply #31 on: November 16, 2010, 05:37:14 PM »
Here's an article from April 28, 1914 that places Colt in New York "for a few days" prior to heading to Canada to do Hamilton.

http://tinyurl.com/38qovt4

edit: It's under the heading "Britons Fear Travers' Golf"

The article also suggest he might be back in the States after Hamilton to go over plans for other courses. 
« Last Edit: November 16, 2010, 05:41:59 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Harry Colt in the USA in 1913??
« Reply #32 on: November 16, 2010, 05:55:43 PM »
The Sun has him at Hamilton by April 12th, 1914.

http://tinyurl.com/2vvh9t6
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

TEPaul

Re: Harry Colt in the USA in 1913??
« Reply #33 on: November 16, 2010, 06:23:20 PM »
Shivas:

As to if and particularly when Colt went home in 1913, I would think the most obvious and effective source to look would be the UK and whether or not they have recently digitized so many of those old ship manifests from that era as the USA obviously has. I have never seen ship manifest documentation from back then for passengers arriving in the UK; I've only heard of digitized ship manifest lists for passengers arriving in the USA.

SL_Solow

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Re: Harry Colt in the USA in 1913??
« Reply #34 on: November 16, 2010, 08:35:19 PM »
Fred Hawtree published Colt & Co, a biographical study in 1991.  In my opinion the book is poorly organized, valuable mostly for a collection of letters between Colt and his partners.  But in his chronology of courses which Colt and his partners designed, he devotes a section to those designed by Colt in North America.  Nothing terribly new but he lists Toronto CC in 1912, Royal Montreal South Course 1913, Pine Valley consultation in 1911 and 1914, Old Elm (with Ross) 1913, Detroit CC 1914, Hamilton Golf and Country Club (18 holes plus ladies 9) Pine Ridge Manitoba (NLE) 1914  He cites little or no source material.  I suspect this is because the focus of his book was elsewhere. 

JR Potts

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Re: Harry Colt in the USA in 1913??
« Reply #35 on: November 16, 2010, 09:34:25 PM »
1913

Harry Colt in Chicago in 1913 at Old Elm and ? with Donald Ross
Colt in Chicago

Also laying out Winnetka Country Club
Winnetka CC

Goes to Pine Valley in July/Aug
Colt goes to Pine Valley

Nope, July
Nope, just July I think

Or was it May?
May?

Back in Chicago in the Fall?  Or sent recommendations via letter?
Fall?

1914?

In London?  But when?
"Called in"

« Last Edit: November 16, 2010, 09:52:21 PM by Ryan Potts »

Paul_Turner

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Re: Harry Colt in the USA in 1913??
« Reply #36 on: November 16, 2010, 10:03:20 PM »
Shivas

I'm not sure if Colt went to Chicago in 1914.  I know Dan Moore was skeptical of a 1914 reference to Colt in one of the Chicago club histories. Hamilton was designed on that 1914 (third) trip, but I'm not sure about others (I'm losing track of all this over the years).  As the newspaper states, he did three trips: 1911, 1913 and 1914.  So he definitely returned to the UK between 1913 and 1914.  

In 1914, I'm not sure if he returned to Pine Valley or Old Elm or the other courses he worked on during his 1913 trip.  

I assume he must have visited Toronto GC in that 1914 trip (a course he designed in 1911 and revisited in 1913) because it's so close to Hamilton.  I find it a bit hard to believe that he would have come all the way across the Atlantic, into NYC and only worked on one course (Hamilton).  WW1 broke out in June 1914 so there was still ample time to visit other placers.  But is there evidence that he visited and worked at other clubs during that 1914 trip?

There's a letter in "Some Essays on Golf Course Architecture" from the club secretary (or equivalent) of Hamilton GC from just after WW1.  The letter basically invites him back to Hamilton to review the course which he hadn't been able to see because of the war.  So I think barring the war, Colt would have intended to make further trip across to North America.  But as it turned out,  there was so much work cropping up now in the UK that Colt never came back and his younger partner went back instead.  And Alison's 1920s reports on Pine Valley, Toronto , Hamilton and Detriot are all at the clubs.  (I'm not sure if he ever visited Old Elm)

I wonder about Colt and Garden City?
« Last Edit: November 16, 2010, 10:27:21 PM by Paul_Turner »
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

TEPaul

Re: Harry Colt in the USA in 1913??
« Reply #37 on: November 16, 2010, 10:20:24 PM »
Paul:

Pine Valley is not aware an iota that Colt returned there in 1914 and given the respect they had for him if he had I have no doubt they would've recorded it.

JR Potts

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Re: Harry Colt in the USA in 1913??
« Reply #38 on: November 16, 2010, 11:35:13 PM »
I thought it was one and the same.

That said, how much of Colt and Ross is left at Indian Hill?

Gerry B

Re: Harry Colt in the USA in 1913??
« Reply #39 on: November 17, 2010, 12:34:01 AM »
bob-o-link?

Bryan Izatt

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Re: Harry Colt in the USA in 1913??
« Reply #40 on: November 17, 2010, 04:09:23 AM »

Henry S Colt, occupation - "golf expert", and his wife Charlotte departed from Liverpool April 14, 1914 on board the Carmania and arrived in Boston on April 23, 1914.  His final destination is listed as Montreal.  

I guess he wasn't in Hamilton on April 12.

« Last Edit: November 17, 2010, 06:48:41 PM by Bryan Izatt »

Tom MacWood

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Re: Harry Colt in the USA in 1913??
« Reply #41 on: November 17, 2010, 06:27:05 AM »
Colt returned to England in mid-May 1914. He arrived at Liverpool May 18. I'm pretty sure Colt was not in Chicago in 1914; I believe he did all his work there in 1913. He consulted a number of courses.

Bob O'Link was an Alison redesign from the 20s.

TEPaul

Re: Harry Colt in the USA in 1913??
« Reply #42 on: November 17, 2010, 11:30:41 AM »
Tom Macwood:

That is very good stuff that you can put Colt arriving back in UK on May 18, 1914. I don't believe I have ever seen anyone documented on here as returning to the UK via a ship manifest on an exact date. Did you document Colt's exact date of return to the UK via a ship manifest?

If so, perhaps you could also tell us when he arrived back in the UK in 1913 or even when Hugh Wilson arrived in the UK in 1912? It would also be very interesting and helpful to know exactly when George Crump and Joe Baker arrived in the UK in 1910. And then of course there are some others of interest such as Horatio Gates Lloyd or Rodman Griscom!

Tyler Kearns

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Re: Harry Colt in the USA in 1913??
« Reply #43 on: November 17, 2010, 12:11:46 PM »
Fred Hawtree published Colt & Co, a biographical study in 1991.  In my opinion the book is poorly organized, valuable mostly for a collection of letters between Colt and his partners.  But in his chronology of courses which Colt and his partners designed, he devotes a section to those designed by Colt in North America.  Nothing terribly new but he lists Toronto CC in 1912, Royal Montreal South Course 1913, Pine Valley consultation in 1911 and 1914, Old Elm (with Ross) 1913, Detroit CC 1914, Hamilton Golf and Country Club (18 holes plus ladies 9) Pine Ridge Manitoba (NLE) 1914  He cites little or no source material.  I suspect this is because the focus of his book was elsewhere. 

The reference to Pine Ridge in Winnipeg, MB is new to me. I did a lot of research for the course in preparing a restorative master plan a few years ago, and Colt's name never came up. The course was originally completed by Thomas Bendelow, and in 1919, Ross reworked the routing a little, planned a few new tees and greens, and devised a new bunkering scheme for the course. I suspect that the reference is incorrect, as Winnipeg is a long way from anywhere. Perhaps if he had done work in Minneapolis it would have made sense to head north, but from Chicago it would have been a long way out of his way.

Regardless, I'll take a look a the old newspapers at the library to see if I can find a link between Colt & Pine Ridge.

TK

Bryan Izatt

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Re: Harry Colt in the USA in 1913??
« Reply #44 on: November 17, 2010, 01:05:11 PM »
So the open questions now are:

1.  What is the basis for Bryan's info that:  Henry S Colt, occupation - "golf expert", and his wife Charlotte arrived in Boston from Liverpool on board the Carmania on April 14, 1914.  His final destination is listed as Montreal. 

2. What is the basis for TomM's info that:  Colt returned to England in mid-May 1914. He arrived at Liverpool May 18.

Where did this info come from?  Ship manifests?  News reports?  Other?



My info is from the ship manifest.  Interesting that he called himself a  "golf expert".  Seems to me that there was some discussion of that terminology on one of the Merion threads.


Tom MacWood

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Re: Harry Colt in the USA in 1913??
« Reply #45 on: November 17, 2010, 02:02:24 PM »
So the open questions now are:

1.  What is the basis for Bryan's info that:  Henry S Colt, occupation - "golf expert", and his wife Charlotte arrived in Boston from Liverpool on board the Carmania on April 14, 1914.  His final destination is listed as Montreal. 

2. What is the basis for TomM's info that:  Colt returned to England in mid-May 1914. He arrived at Liverpool May 18.

Where did this info come from?  Ship manifests?  News reports?  Other?

British manifests. Colt played in the Sunningdale vs Hoylake match at Hoylake on July 13, 1914 so it would have been impossible for him to be in Chicago July 10.

Rick Shefchik

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Re: Harry Colt in the USA in 1913??
« Reply #46 on: November 17, 2010, 02:33:08 PM »
If Chick Evans' memory is a prime source for putting Colt in Chicago in 1914, it should be taken with skepticism. Ron Rapoport wrote a fantastic account of a decades-long feud between Evans and Bobby Jones in his book "The Immortal Bobby."

It seems that Chick's recollection of his own history was quite fallible; he angered Jones by giving an interview in 1963 saying Jones was a cheat, an over-rated golfer and a poor sport -- opinions Chick didn't seem to hold 30 years earlier. Most of this stemmed from Jones beating Evans 8-7 at the U.S. Amateur at Minikahda in 1927. The putt that Jones did not concede on the 11th and final green grew shorter and shorter as Chick grew older, and his memories of Jones became distorted. He eventually pleaded with Jones for forgiveness, because the rest of the golf world took Jones's side in this feud. They didn't remember things the way Chick did.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Tom MacWood

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Re: Harry Colt in the USA in 1913??
« Reply #47 on: November 17, 2010, 02:43:18 PM »
So, in 1914, he basically came over here for about 3 1/2 weeks.  That's interesting and makes it sound like a rather pointed trip, a purely business trip.  Do we know who was doing the construction on the courses he visited during this brief 1914 trip?  I wonder why he felt compelled to come visit these courses in 1914, as opposed to the Chicago courses.  Could it be that he knew he had a rock solid construction guy in Donald Ross to complete them, so he didn't feel the need to check up on progress?


I would agree with that conclusion. I believe he went to Hamilton, Montreal and Brookline.

TEPaul

Re: Harry Colt in the USA in 1913??
« Reply #48 on: November 17, 2010, 04:36:17 PM »
Shivas:

I wonder why Tom MacWood neglected to answer your last question in Reply #52? He has also certainly shown in the past that he knows how to copy things onto posts and so I wonder if he would post that UK ship manifest he referred to of Colt arriving in the UK on May 18, 1914?

If the UK actually has those things from that era digitized as the USA does it sure would be helpful to look up a number of people who went over there then such as Hugh Wilson, George Crump and perhaps the likes of MCC's Lloyd and Griscom.

I suspect Griscom was a frequent trans-Altantic traveler as his father was the chairman of what was known as the International Mercantile Marine that had app a million tons at sea back then. It also essentially owned the White Star Line and the Titanic (is it really any wonder why MCC's Hugh Wilson was booked to return on the Titanic before delaying his return for a week or so?). Rodman Griscom's brother was also the ambassador to Italy around that time.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2010, 04:38:56 PM by TEPaul »

Bradley Anderson

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Re: Harry Colt in the USA in 1913??
« Reply #49 on: November 17, 2010, 04:45:46 PM »
I have this from the Old Elm Club Report of Board of Governors dated October 17, 1914. The document below has Colt at Old Elm in April 1913 for "many days". Two full days were spent determining the location of the clubhouse. It is interesting to note that this may have been more of a true collaboration of Ross and Colt.

In January, 1913, Old Elm Club was organized and plans for commencing construction of the course as early in the spring as the weather would permit were made. Donald Ross was engaged to lay out -the course, and later, H. S. Colt, the famous English golf architect, who was in this country, was secured, and Old Elm represents the best ideas and skill of two recognized experts in this work. The results obtained have been very gratifying and experts who have played on prominent courses of the world pronounce Old Elm superior to a great majority of the inland courses and equal to many of the seaside courses. The topography of our grounds astonishes nearly everyone who visits Old Elm.

Our original purchase of land comprised 140 acres. In April, 1913, after spending many days trying to adapt the 140 acres to the kind of golf course we wanted, Messrs' Colt and Ross recommended the purchase of twenty acres additional land. We finally bought the twenty acres which now comprise our southwest twenty, and the purchase of these twenty acres helped create our deficit, as our calculations as to the cost of constructing the course were made before the necessity for this additional land was known. The Club owns 160 acres of land, and competent appraisers value this land at prices much higher than the club paid for it.

As the result of most vigorous and efficient work the course was ready for seed September 15 1913. When one considers the number of trees that had to be removed, stumps grubbed out, thorough treatment of the soil, intelligent draining of the land, etc., this was a great accomplishment. Seed planted September 15, 1913; Club opened to members June 20, 1914; Clubhouse and grounds in excellent condition.

This is the history of Old Elm, and those who did not see the course in September, 1913, and who have not watched the progress of the work, will find it difficult to comprehend just what this statement means,- that last September the fairways and putting greensthat are now so beautifully green were absolutely devoid of grass; last September, in fact last December, where your Clubhouse stands was a forbidding looking knoll of land.

Sixty thousand feet of drain tile should provide first class drainage and make the course available for play early in the spring. The fairways are piped so that during a long dry spell it will be possible to sprinkle the fairways as well as the putting greens. The Clubhouse needs no comment. It has been most highly praised by all who have visited Old Elm. It is fireproof, and was designed to provide all the comforts and conveniences which should be present in a golf club. Numerous inquiries have been made as to why the Clubhouse
was located so near the roadway. Messrs. Ross and Colt devoted two days to an effort to locate this Clubhouse farther back in the grounds without interfering with the golf course, but the of shape of the land is such that this could not be accomplished and all hands agreed, after many conferences, that the knoll upon which the Clubhouse is now located was the only place in which it could be constructed without detriment to the golf course.

The Clubhouse was constructed during a period when prices were depressed and during most of the time it was possible to secure plenty of labor for work on the course as well as on the Clubhouse, so that the work could be rushed, and in that way the work done on Old Elm practically stands the Club at cost. We have been favored by the weather, and in fact we feel we have been extremely fortunate in carrying out this work.

While the course is in excellent condition, it is not finished and there are many refinements to be added. A suitable house for our caddies must be built, and we must sink a well to supply water for the caretaker's cottage and the barn during the winter months when the main water supply is shut off. To preserve the contour of many of our bunkers, it will be necessary to sod the sharp
slopes of the bunkers. In short, there remains considerable work to be done, and experts tell us that the condition of the course next year will astonish those who are delighted with it today.


« Last Edit: November 17, 2010, 05:16:47 PM by Bradley Anderson »

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