[TEPaul]

Can anyone on here accurately track Harry Colt's itinerary in the USA in 1913 and his architectural contributions in this country in 1913? His whereabouts over here seems to be constantly speculative and inexact. Recently, I've found these elusive blips (from letters and such that have to do with other subjects) of the mention of him visiting Seaview, Merion and now perhaps the original HVGC (NLE) in 1913.

Isn't there anything in England or from the Hawtrees or anyone else that's a bit more specific about what he did exactly over here, and when, if and when he was here previously? Did he ever return to America again after 1913? I've asked the latter question a number of times to no real avail. For one of the most well-known architects in the world at that time his whereabouts sure seem to be mysterious. Why is that?

His partner Alison, for instance, left some significant architectural recommendations at PVGC, most of which were accepted and enacted but it doesn't appear he stuck around to oversee them----others did.

This company of Colt, Alison, MacKenzie appear to have been men on the move through certain areas of the world as rapidly as I've almost ever heard of!

Were these guys just designers (leaving plans) or did they actually ever stick around to oversee the architectural finished product?

[Jeff_Mingay]

Tom,

I'm pretty sure Colt's legendary visit to Pine Valley was tied in with his trip to Ancaster, Ontario to layout a new course for Hamilton G&CC. In fact, I'm very certain that he was at Hamilton early in 1913, prior to heading on to Philadelphia.

I've always suspect that his principal reason for crossing the Atlantic that year was to work at Hamilton (although I'm definitely not certain). PV might have been a stop on the way home, per se?  

It seems to me as well, he made relatively quick paper plans for Hamilton that were left in the hands of a very capable green-keeper, and never returned to inspect, nor approve the construction work. The same occurred in 1911 at Toronto Golf Club, I think.

[TEPaul]

Jeff:

I don't think there's any question at all that Colt came to the Philadelphia area from a job at Hamilton. Ian Andrews has sent me a copy of his design plan at Hamiltion. I'm just wondering what he did when he crossed the border into America in 1913---there seems to be so many semi-hazy stories of what he did in America during that perhaps relatively brief stay in 1913.

[Jeff_Mingay]

I'm too tired to really think about this right now (which means I probably shouldn't be making this post!), but I recall CC of Detroit and Old Elm in Chicago as courses Colt might also have laid out during the same trip to North America, in 1913.  

[T_MacWood]

In 1913 Colt started in NY, then went to Boston, Montreal, Hamilton, Chicago and Philadelphia...I believe in that order...although I'm not certain. If remember correctly, there is picture of Huntingdon Valley in Thomas's book that mentions Colt in the credits.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tom, That would be correct.  It mentions some guy and the green committee on adivce from Low & Colt. Its featuring an image of a  punch bowl green.

[TEPaul]

Something tells me Geo Thomas's word in the manner of architectural attribution in and around the original "Philadelphia School of Architecture" is about as good as it gets. The reason I say that is at this point when one compares what he says and refers to in his book to what remains from the "other side of the coin" (inside the archives and such of the clubs he mentions) he was most definitely a guy who did not report things from second-hand sources---he was very much "there"---if you know what I mean.

(and in most every case he was very much "there" right from the beginnings! Geo Thomas was about as early as one gets from the original "Philadelphia School of Architecture---as was Tillinghast!)

[Brad Klein]

TEP,

one piece of evidence, that I refer to on pg. 117 of the Ross book, is when Colt was on site at Old Elm in Chicago on April 27, 1913 when he made field notes on the course.

Also, see Colt & Alison, "Some Essays on Golf Course Architecture" (1920, reprinted by Grant Books n 1990). Chapters 2-5 are by Colt and refer to much of his work up to that era. They include photos of Pine Valley 5, 10, 18 (finished) and the site of the 15th tee.

[TEPaul]

I'd like to find out (if possible) what order (of cities) Colt did take in 1913. Brad Klein puts him at Old Elm on April 27. PVGC (and Tillinghast) seemed to put him at that course for a week, perhaps two in May/June (no specific dates). If he was in Chicago on April 27, and then traveled directly to Philadelphia, and the timeframe from PVGC is accurate he must have spend close to a month at a few of the courses around Philadelphia. Is that logical? Again, there are snippets of info that he may've visisted Seaview, Merion and HVGC in the Delaware Valley. But I've always heard he came to Philadelphia from Canada.

Ian:

Do you have any date on when he was at Hamilton?

[Brad Klein]

TEP, friend of mine is secretary of Sunningdale. Here's the note he just sent me about this:

Hi - lot's of stuff in storage at present, because of major Clubhouse redevelopment. However, have you a copy of Colt & Co by Fred Hawtree? Page 30 refers to a Committee meeting on 25 Jan 1911 when Colt explains that he plans to be away to the US in the middle of that March - 1911.

At some point I should be able to access those minutes in full.
On page 35 it lists Pine Valley as a course he worked on in 1911/1912, also Toronto; Old Elm Club Illinois in 1913 & Royal Montreal; in 1914 Detroit; Hamilton Ontario, Pine Ridge Manitoba and Pine Valley again.

[TEPaul]

Brad:

Crump didn't even buy the land that became Pine Valley until Oct. 1912 so there wasn't anything that Colt could've been doing there in 1911 or 1912. At the moment, I don't mind being in the dark by a few weeks but certainly not a few years!

When it comes to the timelines of some of these facts that seem to get applied so many decades later, things can really get out of whack and that ain't good if we're as focused on the details of some of this stuff as some of us on here are---far more, I believe, than has ever been done.

One example is the story of Hugh Wilson just missing going down on the Titanic. The fact is, he was home from Europe about two years previous to that.  

[TEPaul]

With a man like Harry Colt on that tour he took of America, I think a few things are getting seriously misinterpreted today. One is we haven't yet apparently established where he was at any particular time except a few courses. The other thing is he seemed to have been or a fairly rapid "advisory" tour. I think we need to more fully understand what that really meant.

First of all, I think we need to understand better the way Colt (and probably Willie Park Jr) was viewed by those into American architecture back then. Contrary to what some today and some on here seem to assume Harry Colt had tremendous respect, one helluva a reputation as an archtiect back then by most all in America. The same was true of Park, I think. Both were perhaps the most respected in the world.

The second thing we need to really analyze is what they left at these clubs and courses compared to what actually got built!

These are things I think many of us do not yet undertand even remotely well enough. But if we can get some timelines set for Colt over here I think in the end it sure will help. That's where we should start, at least.

[Bill Gayne]

Tom,

From the May 1913 American Golfer, page 94.

"Mr. H.S. Colt who has been secretary of the Sunningdale Club for many years, has now finally given up that office and sailed for New York on the 29th of last month. He will be away in the United States for two months."  

I believe that last month at the time of writing would be March and so he would arrive in North America around April 7 (give or take a day or two). The usual passage time for a transatlantic journey was nine days.

Page 266, July 1913 American Golfer.

"Mr. H.S. Colt the British Critic spent a week at Pine Valley"

Page 164-165, June 1913 American Golfer.

"Old Elm Club of Chicago has consulted H.S. Colt of Sunningdale England and Donald Ross, the Pinehurst Professional. These two experts recently spent a week at the grounds..."

Page 147, June 1913 American Golfer.

"Mr. H.S. Colt who is in the States at present is expected to visit Pine Valley."

So the Old Elm week was probably in Late April or early May (which makes sense given Brad Klien's date in reply #7) and the Pine Valley visit in early June or maybe late May. If he kept his visit to two months he would be leaving shortly after the Pine Valley visit in early June.

[TEPaul]

BillG:

Good stuff, thanks! That makes perfect sense and fits well with the PVGC timeline I've always used. I guess the American Golfer is where Finegan got his info for his PVGC history book--I don't believe there's anything more specific in the PV archives relating to Colt's time at PVGC. I guess the next question could be how or who or why any of these clubs on his two month itinerary contacted him. I doubt he'd plan a two month trip to the USA cold---just looking for leads and clients!

I'll take a look at those American Golfers you cited but do you have any idea who did the reporting in those articles? Was it Tillinghast? Probably not---I've already been through most all his "Eastern Notes".

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom Paul,

Harry Colt visited Pine Valley in June, 1913, according to Tillinghast.

Some other great, first-hand stuff can be found at the following link;

http://www.tillinghast.net/news_14.html

[TEPaul]

MikeC:

Thanks, I saw that some years ago. Other sources put it at May/June, so seeing as Colt was only there for a week, perhaps up to two, he obviously got there at the end of May and into June. The real significance of that date as it fits into the Crump/Colt combination timelines is that would've given Crump about two to two and a half months without Colt (before he first arrived and first saw the site) to work on that first topo routing map we sometimes refer to as the first topo routing map or the stick routing topo. Seeing as Crump was apparently there constantly (at first living in a tent) that's a pretty good amount of time to be on the course looking for holes and a routing. Not just that but Tillinghast even described in writing the clearing lines and such that became some of the holes that are out there now (1-4, 6) around the time or perhaps even slightly before Crump was even give the topo maps in March of 1913. And then one can't forget Crump obviously analyzed the site carefully before he bought it in Oct 1912 and certainly between Oct 1912 and March of 1913 when the surveyor gave him the topos. Tillinghast refers to finally being allowed to release the secret which he'd held for perhaps a year. He wrote that in early 1913---so theoretically that could've put Crump out there analyzing that site as early as the first few months of 1912.

[Jeff_Mingay]

"In May it was announced that the British golf architect, H.S. Colt, was in Canada and that probably he would visit Pine Valley to collaborate in the final drafting of plans..."

The above line from Tillinghast's report seems to indicate that Colt's visit to Pine Valley wasn't pre-arranged prior to his departure from England.

Don't you think?

[Bill Gayne]

Tom,

I don't know who the actual authors were only the psuedonyms. The May 1913 quote was from "Our British Correspondent" in Foreign Notes.

The page 147 quote from June was from Eastern Pennsylvania and "Hazard."

The other June quote was from the Western Department and "Lochnivar."

Was Tillinghast's psuedonym "Hazard?"

[TEPaul]

“Was Tillinghast's psuedonym "Hazard?"

BillG:

Yes , that was Tillinghast.

“The above line from Tillinghast's report seems to indicate that Colt's visit to Pine Valley wasn't pre-arranged prior to his departure from England.
Don't you think?”

Jeff:

Maybe it wasn’t but it wouldn’t surprise me if it was, in some way. Crump played some golf in the heathlands and at Sunningdale as well as a match against John Ball when he was in Europe with Col. Baker in 1910 to look at architecture, so it’s likely he may’ve met Colt and discussed architecture with him. But if Colt arranged a two-month trip to the USA in 1913 I’m pretty sure he came with some agreements or contract expectations or at least some advisory work semi-lined up. However, in those days, and particularly in a city like Philadelphia in those early days (the theme of the early “Philly School” was basically one of close connections and friends) it’s likely that everyone knew about it and that many of them may’ve tried to get him to come to their courses for one thing or another. Plus, they probably all read "American Golfer" and that report that he was coming. It doesn’t exactly seem to me that Crump or PVGC felt they absolutely had to have Colt, but, you know, if he was in the area…..sort of thing. It seems to me if Crump had felt he had to have Colt to design the course then he probably wouldn’t have done as much as he did before Colt got there. A few holes were basically in construction when Colt got to PVGC---probably somewhat like what we call today “roughed-in”----and a fair number of others and other possibilities had already been cleared. It was definitely not an easy thing to do in those days to clear out potential hole corridors on that site as Crump did before Colt arrived so if he was really depending on Colt to design the course I hardly think he would've gone to all that trouble and expense before Colt ever got there.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Colt & Co by Fred Hawtree? Page 30 refers to a Committee meeting on 25 Jan 1911 when Colt explains that he plans to be away to the US in the middle of that March - 1911.

...On page 35 it lists Pine Valley as a course he worked on in 1911/1912, also Toronto; Old Elm Club Illinois in 1913 & Royal Montreal; in 1914 Detroit; Hamilton Ontario, Pine Ridge Manitoba and Pine Valley again.

This quote is form Brad Klein's second response above.  I followed all the discussion about Pine Valley last winter and it was fascinating.  Not to hijack Shivas's point in bringing back this thread but it strikes me that TEP you are ignoring these 'facts' above by just dismissing them.  I'm not going to speculate how they fit in but they offer evidence that I don't think has been properly assessed.  I’m worried that because they don’t fit in with the accepted ‘facts’ as known they are not being given their proper weight?

[Robert Thompson]

Toronto Golf Club is open for play in 1912, while Hamilton is 1914. That suggests Colt was likely in Canada a lot from 1911 to 1913, which is why the dates seem to tie in with trips south of the border. What was he doing in Montreal? There are no Colt courses there now and I never recall hearing of one that disappeared. Did he do some reno work there?

[Ian Andrew]

Jeff,

It seems to me as well, he made relatively quick paper plans for Hamilton that were left in the hands of a very capable green-keeper, and never returned to inspect, nor approve the construction work. The same occurred in 1911 at Toronto Golf Club, I think.

He made more than one visit to Toronto.


Tom MacWood,

In 1913 Colt started in NY, then went to Boston, Montreal, Hamilton, Chicago and Philadelphia...I believe in that order...although I'm not certain. If remember correctly, there is picture of Huntingdon Valley in Thomas's book that mentions Colt in the credits.

There is reference to this in Canadian Golfer. Remeber he consulted with Royal Montreal and talked them into staying at the Dixie site and revising the course instead. He walked the future Mount Bruno when he was in Montreal. He was there for a few days.


Tom Paul,

Harry Colt was in Toronto on 12th of May 1913 doing a final inspection of Toronto Golf (which was not complete - but bvery close). I have his notes from that date.

He was likely at Hamilton on this trip too. I have not contacted Hamilton to see if they have correspondance.

(The plan you have is Toronto Golf)

[Ian Andrew]

I found it interesting how Hamilton had contacted Colt in 1919 to come over to make changes to the bunkering. They wanted him and no one else to do the work. The leter states " Now that the war is over I hope that we may expect you on this side not later than next year."

I always wondered why he never came back.

(source Some Essays.....)

[T_MacWood]

Ian
That is good question. The folks in Japan wanted him badly as well. I concluded that Colt was tired of travel at that point in his life, but that was in 1930 and he was sixty-one years old, and Japan is a hell of a treck from England.

Upon further review, I suspect he was more interested in creating opportunity for Alison. Colt had more than enough prime work locally, the challenge was to find enough work for his talented associates. He succeeded with Alison and failed with MacKenzie.

[Ian Andrew]

Tom,

What was Colt working on in 1919 through to the early 20's. There was a lot of American work done by Alison in this period (including his revisions to Toronto Golf).

The question I would love answered (and I'll try do that myself soon) Is....Did Alison eventually go to Hamilton in 1920 (in Colt's place) to meet with Hamilton and address there bunkers. Of note: I can place Alison in Toronto on a number of occasions throughout the 20's with work around Toronto (Toronto, York Downs, Park, Weston, and I bet there are others). I only recently discovered Ross worked at more than Rosedale in Toronto too.

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