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Lloyd_Cole

Re:most polarizing courses????
« Reply #25 on: February 23, 2005, 11:20:06 PM »
Pebble. I was underwhelmed by 10 or 12 holes.
But then I was underwhelmed by the whole Bandon experience; not the design - the delivery.

ForkaB

Re:most polarizing courses????
« Reply #26 on: February 24, 2005, 04:43:31 AM »
Interesting take on Bandon, Lloyd.

I felt the same way too--loved the courses, but thought the experience fell a bit flat.  Based on the hype, when I went there (2001) I was expecting some sort of culturally integrated golfing Shangri-la, a la so many of the fine golfing venues in Ireland and Scotland.  Instead, I found just another CCFAD, stuck on the outside of (and very much separate from) a relatively average old coastal town.

The golf was great, the company wsa great, but there wasn't a sense of wholeness, at least for me.

TEPaul

Re:most polarizing courses????
« Reply #27 on: February 24, 2005, 06:17:04 AM »
"I was expecting some sort of culturally integrated golfing Shangri-la, a la so many of the fine golfing venues in Ireland and Scotland."

Rich:

I wonder if you could explain in detail what you mean by that? What golfing venue in Ireland would you term a 'culturally integrated Shangri-la'? How about RCD?
« Last Edit: February 24, 2005, 08:02:25 AM by TEPaul »

ForkaB

Re:most polarizing courses????
« Reply #28 on: February 24, 2005, 06:41:43 AM »
Tom

I was thinking of places where the golf is a part of the town AND vice-versa (strong local core membership, membership from all social classes, joint promotional development between the town and the club, etc.).  I wouldn't include RCD since since I don't think that the town is as much of a part of the golf there as at the places I'm thinking of.  Places like:

Ballyliffin
Carnoustie
Dornoch
North Berwick
Lahinch
St. Andrews

Hope this helps.

Rich

TEPaul

Re:most polarizing courses????
« Reply #29 on: February 24, 2005, 08:24:36 AM »
Rich:

I'm sure you understand that there is basically nothing like that in America---basically nothing. The reasons are obvious---many of those towns/courses you describe in Scotland/Ireland are so old the courses are or were actually owned by the towns and the townspeople (much of that almost preceded "golf architecture" as we know it). The reason is clearly the antiquity of it all over there. Golf simply did not evolve that way in America at all---and at this point it can hardly be expected to sort of "create" that evolution that led to that "cultural integration" in Scotland and Ireland!

All of this goes to the vast differences in golf architecture and golf courses and their varying cultures throughout the world---vast differences that probably make up the interesting fabric of golf (and architecture) across the world. I hardly think golf or architecture should ever attempt to force cultural similarity anywhere, and most certainly not everywhere---as that is simply not natural!

If one likes the type of golf culture we have here one comes here. If one likes the very different type of golf culture they have over there one goes there. Plenty of Americans go to Scotland and Ireland because they like to sample that difference, for a while, at least, and plenty of Europeans come here because they like to sample the vastly different golf culture over here, for a while, at least!

The type of preference you seem to have---appears to make you occasionally seem to want to force on America golf and its culture from over there---and this would certainly include the things you've said about the CONGU handicap system over here.

In my opinion, it simply wouldn't work over here and the reasons go way back to cultural differences and the differing evolutions of them.

It's just better, in my opinion, to have these differences of cultures in golf around the world---it helps the game in the long run---it creates regional interest and diversity for those from other parts of the world---again, perhaps one of golf's greatest strengths.

If you want Scotland/Ireland's integrated golf/town culture then go to Scotland or Ireland---and I'm sure that's one of the reasons your there.

I very much doubt the most sophisticated golf analysts have anything at all against the golf and culture of it in Scotland and Ireland. They know they can go there for it and they do.

But that by no means indicates we need to bring it here---we have our own golf and its culture over here---that's just the way it evolved over here over perhaps 100 or more years---it's different---not necessarily better or worse---just different, and that's a very good thing---at least in my opinion!

ForkaB

Re:most polarizing courses????
« Reply #30 on: February 24, 2005, 08:51:11 AM »
Tom

All I was saying is that the early hype for Bandon was that it was something different, more on the Irish/Scottish model.  That it did not turn out to be so was a disappointment to me, but less of a surprise now, since I am so much older and wiser than I was then.......;).

james soper

Re:most polarizing courses????
« Reply #31 on: February 24, 2005, 10:03:17 AM »
seminole
black diamond (or any fazio except wade hampton and shadow creek)
secession
may river club
the bridge
medalist
« Last Edit: February 24, 2005, 10:03:53 AM by james soper »

Jay Cox

Re:most polarizing courses????
« Reply #32 on: February 24, 2005, 10:50:14 AM »
black diamond (or any fazio except wade hampton and shadow creek)

Seems like Shadow Creek has become pretty polarizing too.  See the Falls at Lake LV thread...

Joe Hancock

Re:most polarizing courses????
« Reply #33 on: February 24, 2005, 10:53:35 AM »
Rich,

Does Pinehurst approach the golf/ community integration aspect you're talking about?

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Buck Wolter

Re:most polarizing courses????
« Reply #34 on: February 24, 2005, 10:56:20 AM »
I've found Arcadia Bluffs to be a place where there is no middle ground. I love it but several people I've played there with thought it was over the top and hated it. I've never heard anyone say it was just OK.

Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience -- CS Lewis

Lou_Duran

Re:most polarizing courses????
« Reply #35 on: February 24, 2005, 10:58:04 AM »
Quite a bit of Pet Dye's work is polarizing- PGA West, the TPC (Jacksonville), Kiawah- Ocean, Stonebridge CC.  Even the Golf Club has huge support from some, and others consider it rather middle of the road.  Oak Tree is another example.


ForkaB

Re:most polarizing courses????
« Reply #36 on: February 24, 2005, 11:10:08 AM »
Rich,

Does Pinehurst approach the golf/ community integration aspect you're talking about?

Joe

I've only been there once, Joe, so I'd say maybe, although my guess is that the green staff can't play #2 for a yearly ticket of $500 or so........

mike_malone

Re:most polarizing courses????
« Reply #37 on: February 24, 2005, 11:19:09 AM »
 Lou,
    I agree. Here in the East there is some disagreement about Bulle Rock. I like the place but one often hears a knock on it as being "too expensive" vs. Beechtree.

     My favorite investment manager- Jeremy Grantham spoke recently about the fear that money managers have of "being wrong alone". So, they tend to herd.

   I think the same pressure may exist in modern architecture. Pete Dye seems willing to go against the crowd.
AKA Mayday

Brian_Gracely

Re:most polarizing courses????
« Reply #38 on: February 24, 2005, 01:51:42 PM »
Rich,

Does Pinehurst approach the golf/ community integration aspect you're talking about?

Joe

I've only been there once, Joe, so I'd say maybe, although my guess is that the green staff can't play #2 for a yearly ticket of $500 or so........

The one nice aspect of Pinehurst is that if you buy a house in Pinehurst, then you're able to pay a transfer fee and join Pinehurst CC (the private side of the resort).  So in essense that part of the club is owned more by the city/houses than the actual people living in the houses....since it's transferable.  And it's definitely not $500/yr (last I heard the t-fee was like $7k), but I believe they have some blocked times for courses 1-6 and discounts on 7-8.

Michael Wharton-Palmer

Re:most polarizing courses????
« Reply #39 on: February 24, 2005, 02:24:58 PM »
As far as architects go, I would have to agree that alot of what Pete Dye has produced is polarising..you either love it or hate it..thus TPC...PGA West are two that certainly come to mind.
Whistling Straits is another

TEPaul

Re:most polarizing courses????
« Reply #40 on: February 24, 2005, 04:08:25 PM »
Rich:

The golf course of Pac Dunes looks as much like Scotland as imaginable. Do you deny that? So, I guess you're talking about the buildings or something. Maybe Steve Wynn will buy the whole resort and recreate a Scottish town around the courses compleat with the whole culture. That should make you feel all warm and fuzzy!  

ForkaB

Re:most polarizing courses????
« Reply #41 on: February 24, 2005, 05:00:01 PM »
Rich:

The golf course of Pac Dunes looks as much like Scotland as imaginable. Do you deny that?

Yes................ ::)

TEPaul

Re:most polarizing courses????
« Reply #42 on: February 24, 2005, 05:06:17 PM »
Rich:

Thanks for the informative and comprehensive answer. I can't imagine why I'd ever need to ask another question about it after that!  ;)

ForkaB

Re:most polarizing courses????
« Reply #43 on: February 24, 2005, 05:07:51 PM »
Tom

When you ask a rhetorical question, expect a terse answer.  I assume Mrs. Grundy taught you and Maxie Behr that in 3rd grade....... ;)

TEPaul

Re:most polarizing courses????
« Reply #44 on: February 24, 2005, 05:12:43 PM »
"Tom
When you ask a rhetorical question, expect a terse answer."

Rich:

It would seem that may be the way you approach all architecture and questions about it----eg rhetorically!  ;)

Lou_Duran

Re:most polarizing courses????
« Reply #45 on: February 24, 2005, 05:12:55 PM »
Rich,

The Old Course may be one of the most polarizing.  Some revere it; others think that it is a bad joke.

Of the polarizing courses, I wonder how many people would change their minds after playing them several times.  Jones did with St. Andrews.  I recently reversed my thoughts on Greg Norman's Creeks at Beechwood, which was redone somewhat by Jay Morrish and renamed Doral Tesoro (I didn't like it before or after, but am becoming more appreciative after playing it a couple of more times).

ForkaB

Re:most polarizing courses????
« Reply #46 on: February 24, 2005, 05:19:49 PM »
Lou

You are right about St. Andrews.  It's a shame that we can't seem to debate the merits of that course on this site in a gentlemanly manner. :'(

Vis a vis multiple plays, I'm not sure if I can think of a course that I did NOT like better after more than one play.  As J. Susan once said, many times, once is not enough.  I'm sure any of the many forensic sleuths on this site could find strategic merit in a pile of pony poo, if they played it and studied it 200+ times.

« Last Edit: February 24, 2005, 05:20:53 PM by Rich Goodale »

THuckaby2

Re:most polarizing courses????
« Reply #47 on: February 24, 2005, 05:21:27 PM »
shivas: I'm guessing you did this intentionally....but methinks your examples answer the question.  In each case you have one course that MANY see, either on television or in person or both; versus another that very, very few get to see either on TV or in person or at all.  It shouldn't surprise you that everyone has an opinion on the former, and those opinions get polarized; as opposed to the latter, where the few who get to see them in person tend to universally praise the places.

Of course you also realize Rich "poo-poohed CPC and NGLA and has said repeatedly he has no desire to go to Sand Hills" Goodale remains the exception to this rule, as he is to damn near every other rule one might have about this game...

 ;)

TH

TEPaul

Re:most polarizing courses????
« Reply #48 on: February 24, 2005, 05:23:40 PM »
Shivas:

Probably because they have some things that are controversial. I wouldn't agree that PB is polarizing though, only that it should never be considered the #1 course in America!   ;)

Did you hear about that time a couple of years ago just after PB was voted #1 and the PB brass came to play PV and were discreetly overheard saying in the parking lot after the round;

"Jeeesus, no way in the world our course is this good."

;)

TEPaul

Re:most polarizing courses????
« Reply #49 on: February 24, 2005, 05:36:12 PM »
TomH:

Rich Goodale's take on things to do with golf architecture only proves my theory that---"Golf and it's architecture is a great big thing and there really is room in it for everyone."

There's not a lot of room for someone with his opinions but fortunately for him there's still a little bit left.

He's basically an ex-patriate American who hates all things about America. He's an American reverse jingoist. We have a way of dealing with people like him over here though. Last time he was over here apparently immigrations took care of him. I spent some time with him and being as unobservant as he is he apparently never realized there was a sign on his back at all times that read;

"I'm Rich Goodale,
an American Reverse
Jingoist DUMBY"

That would explain why his little daughter was in such a mirthful mood at all times! I asked her how she liked being back here and she said it was great being here with such a Big Dumby who everyone seemed to always laugh around!

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