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TEPaul

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #25 on: August 09, 2002, 03:41:54 AM »
Henryhudson:

You should have played Gulph Mills, LuLu, Aronomink and Torresdale Frankford too and you would have played Ross's entire Philly inventory in a week. Oops, you could have fit in Ross's cute little recently restored Jeffersonville too and gotten all eight in!

When you think about that Ross Philly inventory it's quite interesting. Aronomink, Kennett Square, Riverton, GMGC, Jeffersonville, LuLu have either been restored or are up for it all within 3-4 years or less!

That's pretty damn interesting! Good restorations seem to have formed very much a critical mass!!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:08 PM by -1 »
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TEPaul

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #26 on: August 09, 2002, 03:57:39 AM »
Again, another interesting thought on Ross. When you think of the other Ross courses around the country it seems to me Ross's inventory is undergoing restoration at a rate far and away faster and more extensively than any other architect!

Donald, me boy, it seems like they spent about 50-70 years taking your courses apart and changing them and now within about half a decade they're all trying to put them back together again as fast and extensively as possible!

Very interesting. There's no doubt about it--restoration--Ross restoration anyway has definitely formed a critical mass.

Sorry about the Perry Maxwell changes to your holes at Gulph Mills though! There're definitely staying. The undeniable fact is his redesigns are far better than your original designs on those holes!
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #27 on: August 09, 2002, 04:51:31 AM »
Tom:

You make a good point about the number of Ross renovations recently completed, being currently worked on, or even just contemplated in the future.  

My take on it is that these are all pretty old golf courses, and, therefore, suffer from the same maladies and neglect.  Over planting being the number one problem.  Most old courses suffer from this to some degree or another.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

angie

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #28 on: August 09, 2002, 05:15:49 AM »
Quote

An example of the "maintenance meld" idea -- overplanting, among other things, would be a case of the absence of maintenance meld ...  :'(
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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TEPaul

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #29 on: August 09, 2002, 06:03:31 AM »
Angie:

Yes, it would and there's little doubt that now on many courses the direction of overplanting is stopping, turning around and going back the other way--probably the most notable example being Oakmont!! But Shinnecock and NGLA, GCGC and even Seminole cleared out or way back a few years ago, other good examples of the reversal of a decades old trend! Philly C.C got pretty radical on a section of their course that way too recently!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #30 on: August 09, 2002, 01:15:29 PM »
Angie:

your quote:
>An example of the "maintenance meld" idea -- overplanting, among other things, would be a case of the absence of maintenance meld ...  

You lost me on this one!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

WPM

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #31 on: August 09, 2002, 05:15:56 PM »
Angie-
     Glad to hear you like Rush Creek(being my home course).  Since you are a Ross fan, have you ever played Cloquet CC, not to far from Northland.  Its nice Ross nine holer thats a real hidden gem and is quite fun to play.  My cousin's a member there so I play it quite often.  I've play Minneapolis GC (another Ross course but in the Twin Cities thats held a PGA championship) and personally like Cloquet much better.  MGC had very little strategy and balance and the green complexes weren't anything special, opposite is true at cloquet.  What other courses have you play in Minnesota. Just curious.
               Later
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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angie

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #32 on: August 09, 2002, 06:22:56 PM »
i have played Minneapolis GC as well, and agree with you that it didn't seem like much, "greenswise."  i have a penchant for complex greens (a complex about green complexes?) because as a (kind of puny) woman who realistically can't whallop it out there much past 210, and who is often hitting a 5 iron when men in the group have 9's, greens can be great "equalizers." it's a known fact that men generally chip and putt better than women do (even the lpga admits this), but at least i'm using the same clubs from the verge, the bunkers and/or on the surface itself.
didn't ever play cloquet, but that's probably because during the years i visited duluth my hosts were members at northland, so we never strayed any further than that.
ah, but, to get back to greens, there's a thread about "subtle" greens that got started today, which i'm currently pondering, so off i go now to post a thought or two.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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TEPaul

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #33 on: August 09, 2002, 06:38:41 PM »
Paul Richards:

My take on what Angie is saying about tree overplanting is it can be an example of the absence of the "ideal maintenance meld".

Overplanted courses can have trees that get in the way of valid original architectural shot angles and such and as such that can compromise the "ideal" design intent. Call overplanting poor architecture in some cases or poor maintenance--whatever--the course is not all it can be or was intended to be--and overplanting would be the culprit in this case.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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angie

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #34 on: August 09, 2002, 06:46:24 PM »
:)  gee, TEP, you say it so well!  thanks -- that's exactly what i meant!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #35 on: August 09, 2002, 07:28:47 PM »
Tom and Angie:

Understood!  We are all on the same page here!!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

WPM

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #36 on: August 09, 2002, 07:38:37 PM »
Angie-
    Next time you visit duluth you should try cloquet.  They have a few great green complexs.  Although it is private, im sure you could get on, junior memberships are $150 that shows you how not exclusive it is.  And im with you on the driving distance, im only 14, so rarely do i hit it past 215 yds.
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John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #37 on: August 09, 2002, 09:07:34 PM »
Mulvy:

You are right about Cloquet being a great 9-holer.  But it is unlikely the Ross designed it and Jeff Brauer has told me it is now 18 holes.

Minneapolis is not designed by Donald Ross.  I believe credit goes to Tom Bendelow.  Bob Rosburg won the 1959 PGA.

Ross courses in your area include Interlachen and Minikahda (both reworks of Willie Watson designs), Woodhill, and White Bear Yacht Club.  Northland is also a Ross.  For some reason I think they have a prominent event like the U.S. Women's Open in the future.

As I said at the beginning of the thread, Brad's book is essential if you consider it important to know a lot about Donald Ross and the courses he designed.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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TEPaul

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #38 on: August 09, 2002, 09:18:13 PM »
We had no regular females on this discussion group and now we have angie. And MMulvehill is only 14 years old and hits it only 215! This site is getting better every day!

By the way, MMulvehill, don't worry about your lack of distance. In under two years you'll probably be hitting it 295!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #39 on: August 10, 2002, 03:40:17 AM »
Dave:

I am NOT taking credit for the Peter Jans National pseudonym.  However, having read it here on GCA, I have picked up on it and will continue to use it, because it is so apropos!! ;) ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

TEPaul

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #40 on: August 10, 2002, 11:27:02 AM »
Dave Schmidt:

You shouldn't emulate with others something I've done to Pat Mucci!

Pat and I have a very unique relationship! Others might not understand. Pat doesn't understand either but that's completely beside the point.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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WPM

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #41 on: August 10, 2002, 02:38:51 PM »
John-
   I knew that Cloquet added another 9 but I didn't bother mentioning it because its not that good.  As for Minneapolis, I believe there website says its watson but reworked by Ross, just like Minikahda and Interlachen.  And whats this about Northland holding a prominent event? Just wondering.          
                    
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Henry Hudson

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #42 on: August 12, 2002, 02:20:24 PM »
Riverton:  I really like this course.  Built 1900 (vs 1927 for St. Davids).  A fair amount of elevation changes for southern New Jersey.  A few false fronts at the greens, relatively flat, small greens.  Course is in better shape than a few years ago.  A significant number of memorial trees (usually Pine) have been removed.  
Kennett Square:  4-5 years ago "they" took out 2-3000 trees; most feel that was too many.  Unfortunately, KS is on water restriction and is not in the best shape.  Tough greens, more slope and undelations.  #1 hole green slopes toward the back significantly--short but tough starting hole.
St. Davids:  Also has taken out quite a few trees.  Redid traps 4+ years ago--and they are looking into doing them again (Architech same as Aronimink, Pritchard?).  I liked the built up traps but have been told that is not in keeping with Donald.  Greens can be very tough when fast-though usually kept at 10ish on meter.  Greens are pan shaped but sloped--require arching putts :-).  Course is well thought of--holds its own even though the slope is 123.  Tillinghast reconfigured 3-5 holes in about 1931.
Unfortunately, all three courses have something in common--no real driving range.
Quote
Henry:

And your thoughts on each are?

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Henry Hudson

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #43 on: August 12, 2002, 02:29:36 PM »
I got 'em all; just not last week!

Played Aronimink in May.  They added "Knee Bunkers" at the beginning of the fairway on 2-3 holes.  Supposedly Donald wanted to bring a golfer to his knees if he topped a shot.  I don't know if this is true or a legend.
Gulph Mills is near the top!  A former assistant pro at St. Davids' feels Frankford Torresdale is Ross' best effort in the Philly area.  
Quote
Henryhudson:

You should have played Gulph Mills, LuLu, Aronomink and Torresdale Frankford too and you would have played Ross's entire Philly inventory in a week. Oops, you could have fit in Ross's cute little recently restored Jeffersonville too and gotten all eight in!

When you think about that Ross Philly inventory it's quite interesting. Aronomink, Kennett Square, Riverton, GMGC, Jeffersonville, LuLu have either been restored or are up for it all within 3-4 years or less!

That's pretty damn interesting! Good restorations seem to have formed very much a critical mass!!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #44 on: August 12, 2002, 02:55:34 PM »
Northland just completed a renovation -- not to say a restoration -- that has the course playing better than at any time since I first started playing there in 1961. The intent was two-fold, I believe: to get the course closer to Ross's original intent (he completely redesigned the original 1899 course in 1927), and to lure the U.S. Women's Open back to Duluth (I believe it was played at Northland in 1956).

The Women's Open effort is over; there aren't enough available hotel rooms in Duluth in the summertime, so the club has abandoned that quest. But they've got a golf course that now is the equal of any in the state. I just got back from playing in Northland's annual invitational, and the course itself was more spectacular and enjoyable than ever. Best of all, the greens have never been touched (except for some slight rebuilding on 13 a few years ago; it was the one green that had no breaking puts, but now it does.) A few fairway bunkers have been added (left on 16, right on 18, and one has been extended closer to the fairway on the right side of 4); all the bunkers have been rebuilt.

I would like to see the club grow some longer native grasses around the edges of the bunkers; I'd also like to see a few trees cut down. In a panoramic clubhouse photo of the course taken in the '20s, there were very few trees on the course itself (plenty on the perimeter, however.) In general, though, if you're a Ross fan and you find yourself in Minnesota, you owe it to yourself to play this course. Even if it weren't as good as it is, the views of Lake Superior from the hillside holes make it an unforgettable experience.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

scott anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #45 on: August 12, 2002, 06:16:36 PM »
Quote
One of my favorite Donald Ross courses is White Bear Yacht Club in White Bear Lake, Minnesota. I am also a big fan of Ross. Everybody should go and grab the book "Golf Has Never Failed Me". I haven't seen a Ross course that I haven't liked either...which I can't say for many golf course architects.
Played White Bear Yacht Club last week, could be the best 17 holes in MN.  Northland would be even better if they could grow grass in Duluth.  My top 6 courses which had some Ross influence in MN are: 1. White Bear Yacht Club 2. Woodhill 3. Interlachen 4. Minikahda 5. Minneapolis GC 6. Northland
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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scott anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #46 on: August 12, 2002, 06:37:41 PM »
Quote
Mulvy:

You are right about Cloquet being a great 9-holer.  But it is unlikely the Ross designed it and Jeff Brauer has told me it is now 18 holes.

Minneapolis is not designed by Donald Ross.  I believe credit goes to Tom Bendelow.  Bob Rosburg won the 1959 PGA.

Ross courses in your area include Interlachen and Minikahda (both reworks of Willie Watson designs), Woodhill, and White Bear Yacht Club.  Northland is also a Ross.  For some reason I think they have a prominent event like the U.S. Women's Open in the future.

As I said at the beginning of the thread, Brad's book is essential if you consider it important to know a lot about Donald Ross and the courses he designed.

John,
Minneapolis Golf Club's design and routing was originally done by Willie Park Jr. in 1916, Donald Ross completed the routing with his revisions in 1920.  Throw in Raynor gem's Somerset and Midland Hills to these great Ross tracks and the Twin Cities is loaded with classic golf courses.  Minikahda took out over 100+ trees last winter and has just begun a redo of their bunkers and greens.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #47 on: August 12, 2002, 08:00:42 PM »
Scott:

I've said to anyone who will listen that the Twin Towns has as good of variety for Classic designs as any city in the country.

STAN THOMPSON:  North Oaks
SETH RAYNOR:  Somerset
A.W. TILLINGHAST:  Golden Valley and Rochester
DONALD ROSS:  White Bear, Woodhill
TOM BENDELOW:  Edina
WATSON/ROSS:  Minikahda, Interlachen
RTJ:  Hazeltine
PARK:  Minneapolis (Thanks for the help on that one!)

I've heard the rumor that Alister Mackenzie laid out the original 9 at Willmar when passing through on the train.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #48 on: August 12, 2002, 08:30:14 PM »
John:

You are correct.  Minneapolis has a nice mix of many of the great architects.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

SPDB1

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #49 on: August 13, 2002, 07:28:17 AM »

Quote
Scott:

I've said to anyone who will listen that the Twin Towns has as good of variety for Classic designs as any city in the country.

STAN THOMPSON:  North Oaks
SETH RAYNOR:  Somerset
A.W. TILLINGHAST:  Golden Valley and Rochester
DONALD ROSS:  White Bear, Woodhill
TOM BENDELOW:  Edina
WATSON/ROSS:  Minikahda, Interlachen
RTJ:  Hazeltine
PARK:  Minneapolis (Thanks for the help on that one!)

I've heard the rumor that Alister Mackenzie laid out the original 9 at Willmar when passing through on the train.


Can it match (substituting Travis, Wilson, Emmet, Gordon, Flynn and MacDonald for Watson, Bendelow (although you could make a case for Dyker Beach I guess):

Raynor: Yale, Fishers Isl., Creek
MacDonald: NGLA
Tillinghast: WFW/E, Quaker, Fenway
Ross: Plainfield
Park: Maidstone
Flynn: Shinnecock
Emmet/Travis: Garden City
Travis: Hollywood, Round Hill
Emmet: Wee Burn
RTJ: ? Montauk Downs, Metedeconk (stretch)
Wilson: Deepdale, Meadow Brook
Gordon Bros.: Stanwich
Banks: Knoll, Essex Cty, Forsgate

Does your statement hold overall, w/ respect to both variety and quality? I will concede Ross probably did a better quantity of work in MN.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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