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angie

Donald Ross
« on: August 05, 2002, 06:27:30 PM »
I'm a golf course architecture neophyte -- it was about 2 years ago that I first got interested -- and my first interest has been with Donald Ross. I grew up playing a Ross course (Evanston GC in Skokie, IL) and also was lucky to play Northland in Duluth, MN many many times (often wearing mittens between holes) and have played the Glen View Club once, which I believe is Ross, or really seems like one. From there my interest in architecture has grown and I can definitely state that knowing the course's bones and history has added immensely to my love of the game. I'm a 15 GHIN and I play from the middle ("white") tees, not the forwards, so I guess I have a pretty decent game.  I'm 50-something and have been playing since I was 12, so maybe not so decent afterall!  Anyhow, I love that Ross is said to have loathed "vertical hazards" -- trees, I guess, in the middle of things? -- and water except as a natural and rather peripheral occurrence on the course. In my own humble opinion, water is way over used in many many new courses.  And other forced choices, as per the JM discussion thread. Having said all that, I'm trying to learn as much as I can & this discussion group is very interesting. I post under my real name, but don't use my last name -- sorry about that.  One of my favorite layouts is a course in Maple Grove Minnesota called Rush Creek.  There's reallly nothing Ross-ish about it, but it's extremely challenging in all of the best ways, and the town is the home of Jesse Ventura as well!  More later & I will try to become more & more opionated as time goes on! Does anyone out there hate Ross courses?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2002, 07:12:53 PM »
angie:

Who are you? I have many friends at Evanston GC.

Evanston is a great example of the genius of Ross.  It is an interesting golf course, with as much elevation as a Wal-Mart parking lot!  Unfortunately, Jack Nicklaus came in in the '80's and destroyed much of what was great about the course in the interest of "modernization."

Fortunately, there is a movement afoot at Evanston to reintroduce Ross there.  I honestly hope it succeeds.  They need to erase the mistake of Nicklaus, and bring back the classic feel of what Ross intended!

BTW, Glen View is NOT a Ross course.

Why would anyone hate Ross courses?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

DaveEgan

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2002, 07:29:23 PM »
Paul,

Could you enlighten me on the changes Nicklaus made at Evanston?  I ask because I learned the game at EGC and have played there a lot but we left the club before I ever got a chance to learn the history of the course.

By the way, I just discovered this website today and am blown away.  I have already learned things about my home course - Skokie CC - that I never even thought about in almost 20 years of playing there.  Amazing.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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SoLa_in_NoIll

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2002, 07:35:49 PM »
Although I live in Evanston, I have not played Evanston GC (I'm a Kellogg student, so I don't get a chance to play private courses here very often).  I had no idea that it is a Ross course, so now I'm very intrigued.  

I was told that the original site of the Evanston GC was the Peter Jans course in Evanston/Wilmette.  Do either of you know if this is true?  PJ is useful for playing a quick round on a par 60 at 6 p.m. in the summer instead of heading to the range, but that's about all.  The course dates back from the 1910s, I believe, but I questioned the claim of the original EGC.  Please enlighten me if you can.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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DaveEgan

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2002, 07:40:37 PM »
Scott,

Another Kellogg 2003 student here.  Small world.  I don't think that EGC started at Peter N. Jans.  

Dave
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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TEPaul

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2002, 07:56:21 PM »
angie:

You mentioned Glen View G.C. There seems to be a couple of Glen Views in Illinois and I don't know any of them but I do have some William Flynn plans and drawings in a box right behind me of Glen View. Don't know whether they're redesign plans or whether they were done or how much was done but we'll be checking it out fairly soon to see if what's there is some Flynn.

I'm from a Ross course myself--and frankly I've never met anyone who hates Donald Ross. I sure have met plenty of people though who believe that everyone of the 400 courses that are attributed to him were not all homeruns as some assume. I feel that way about him too--not all of them were good--but the good ones are very good!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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John_Conley

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Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2002, 08:12:03 PM »
Haven't played Rush Creek, but walked the site when it was routed as Whispering Pines.  Great site.

Northland is awesome.  Only played it once, probably on the same day you were there.  (For those not in the know, the season in Duluth is delayed by a full 2-3 weeks vs. the Twin Towns, even though they aren't that far apart.)

Ross fan?  Get Dr. Klein's book.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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T_Henningson

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2002, 08:58:55 PM »
One of my favorite Donald Ross courses is White Bear Yacht Club in White Bear Lake, Minnesota. I am also a big fan of Ross. Everybody should go and grab the book "Golf Has Never Failed Me". I haven't seen a Ross course that I haven't liked either...which I can't say for many golf course architects.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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WPM

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2002, 09:10:20 PM »
angie-
 I live about 5 minutes from Rush Creek and it is my home course.  I too love the course, despite a few weak holes.  
I gotta go now though.
             Later
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2002, 03:58:30 AM »
Scott and Dave:

Glad to see some Kellogg students made it to GCA!  Welcome!!
I graduated from Kellogg in 1993.

My understanding is that Peter Jans National, as we like to refer to it, is the site of some of the original Evanston GC, although I will have to ask around to confirm.

Somewhere in the archives is my description of Evanston GC on a thread about good golf courses on dead-flat land, which is a pretty apt description of Evanston.

Apparently in the '80's, the club wanted to modernize the course.  They contacted Nicklaus, whom I believe was just a newbie in the profession at the time, and he told them he respected Donald Ross so much that he would only modernize their course if they could prove that Ross was actually there.  They dug around and found some photos of Ross leading a group around the site (the pictures now hang in the clubhouse along with Nicklaus' topo and drawings as well as Ross').  Well, long story short, Nicklaus took out all the cross bunkers and made some other changes (such as all the placement of bunkering on #8).  Some of my friends there tell me that it was a helluva course before Nicklaus "ruined it."  I have only played it about 20 times, but after Ross' course was changed up.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2002, 04:00:10 AM »
Scott:

I played Peter Jans National for the first time last summer and while it's not much of a course (they park cars on it for the NU football games!), playing there will improve your short game tremendously since all the greens are only about 1000 square feet!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2002, 01:38:55 PM »
Have asked a friend from Evanston to comment on the changes made by Nicklaus.  Hope he answers soon.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

mps

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2002, 02:23:05 PM »
Good to see Kellogg students have time for message boards (I always found time for Wrigley Field).  I doubt if there are any University of Chicago geeks on this site!

Paul - When I was at Kellogg (84/85), Northwestern certainly didn't need to worry about parking for football games!!!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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hlavender

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2002, 08:38:57 PM »
I have been a member of Evanston Golf Club since 1984, and first played the course in 1976.  Just prior to my joining the club the club retained golfforce and Jack to "update"  and "modernize" the course.  An unbelievable number of Ross features were removed or changed, and the overall character of the course was diminished.    Evanston is built on an absolutely flat piece of land--there is probably not more than 10 feet of change from the highest to the lowest points on the course.  Ross used extensive cross-bunkering and grass bunkers to create the illusion of elevation changes, and provide tremendous shot values.  Virtually all of the cross bunkers and all of the grass bunkers were removed.  We had lost a number of elms, and an extensive tree planting program was instituted.  We are now tremendously overgrown.  Because the cross-bunkers and grass bunkers are gone trees are used to force placements of shots.  Visually on many holes one sees trees, and not the layout of the hole.

We have begun a process to arrive at a decision about what to do about the course.  Evanston is still an enjoyable family course, and well liked by its members and guests.  There is a waiting list, so we are not talking about a dire situation.  There are, however, a number of members who would like to see us undo most of what was done in 1983,  and restore the course as close as possible to the original Ross layout.  There is of course resistance--but I hope we can have the success Beverly CC had in convincing the  membership that such a restoration will make the course that much better.

BTW, EGC had its centennial in 1998, and it is not clear from reading the centennial book whether or not any of the holes on PJN were part of the third site used by EGC since its beginnings.  Course one was at Ridge and Lincoln, course two was at Dodge and Greenleaf, and course three was at Sheridan and Ridge.  The present course is course four.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2002, 03:47:58 AM »
hlavender:

Thanks for the update on Evanston.

I truly hope that your Long-Range Committee will make the commitment to restoring the Ross qualities to Evanston, because it is too historic and too good a course to allow it to
continue on its present path - which is typical overgrowth and loss of interesting features.  Good luck.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Bob_Farrell

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2002, 04:53:07 AM »
Angie:

I can't imagine anyone hating Ross courses. I have had the opportunity to play some of his more noted ones, Seminole, Pinehurst #2, Charles River, & Plainfield, and each oen has its own set of challenges for all golfers.

I have also played at Royal Dornoch from which Ross took his base concepts, and it's amazing to see how much of Dornoch translates into his work here. I for one, would like to play many more of his courses given the chance. I'm always looking for the opportunity in my travels.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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angie

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2002, 05:04:09 AM »
Quote
I have been a member of Evanston Golf Club since 1984, and first played the course in 1976.  Just prior to my joining the club the club retained golfforce and Jack to "update"  and "modernize" the course.  An unbelievable number of Ross features were removed or changed, and the overall character of the course was diminished.
My family belonged at EGC when I was a child & teenager. John Revolta was the pro, Hal was the hardworking assistant.  This was back in the 60's and 70's.  Even tho the course was a Ross course, it wasn't perfect. I was too much of a callow youth to really understand what I would hear from my dad & his friends about the features they didn't like, but I do remember the par 3's: one on the front 9 which was beautiful & a real challenge, one on the back nine which didn't look so beautiful but was a real teeth-gnasher.  I loved the 9th hole personally, because I could carry the bunker guarding the dogleg & was accurate enough to not often get caught up in the trees to the left of the bunker or the big elm on its right edge.  But were those Ross features?  No idea.  For anyone interested in the Minneapolis area, I recommend good old Theodore Wirth. A muni, but with several holes that are really classy.  They reworked the course in the mid-1990's and the improvements were exceptionally well done.  Of course, the greens themselves are crap, but that's a city budget thing, more than an architectural feature.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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gmch713

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2002, 09:37:17 AM »
I am a caddy on a Donald Ross course called Kahkwa. It is located in Erie PA and is truly a classic Ross course. The trees are unintrusive but do come into play, all water is natural, and some of Ross's classic designs (greens that ballls will run off easily) can be seen. I love the course and have been working there for about 3 yrs.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2002, 03:31:09 AM »
Angie:

FYI, the three par's at Evanston are #4, #7 (excellent short hole!), #12, and #17(the long one you referred to, I'm sure).
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Ken_Cotner

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2002, 05:41:18 AM »
Well, I thought I might win oldest Kellogg graduate (86) here on GCA, but I see mps nosed me out by a year.

Now I have seen everything -- Peter Jans "National" mentioned on a golf architecture website.  It was good for some late night guerilla golf...

KC, hoping to catch some of Ross' work in the midwest or northeast sometime
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #20 on: August 08, 2002, 05:54:34 AM »
Tom Paul;  The plans are probably for the Glenview Club in Golf Illinois.  Originally an HJ Tweedie design, it nderwent a significant redesign by Flynn and was considered an outstanding test for its time.  Later redesigns including one by Nugent changed the character.  Approx. 2 years ago the club brought in David Esler to try to restore the Flynn "feel" if not the exact design.  Esler revamped all the bunkering and added significant areas of tall fescue.  The greens were gassed and replanted with some redesign.  Routing remains relatively true.  The course is much improved.  By the way, the men's locker room is somewhat extraordinary in that it is festooned with the heads of big game animals shot by members during the early part of the 20th century.  Historically this was an "old money" club although that has changed to a degree.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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angie

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #21 on: August 08, 2002, 07:13:22 AM »
i know of 3 courses that have similar "glenview" names in the chicagoland area: the Glenview Park GC (9 hole muni), the Glen Club (on site of old naval airbase, kemper sports managed) and the Glen View Club (spelled as 2 words) the private in Golf, Illinois (Golf is an unincorporated mini-mini-village). The new bunkering at Glen View is very interesting -- shaggy verges which are aesthetically pleasing to the eye and make the play interesting. My recollection is that generally they rate an "A" but I got lucky the day I played and was in none of them!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

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Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #22 on: August 08, 2002, 07:13:09 PM »
Ken:

Glad you appreciated the "Peter Jans National" comments. ;) ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Henryhudson

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #23 on: August 08, 2002, 08:40:12 PM »
;D

I had the chance to play THREE Donald Ross courses this week!  Riverton (Cinaminson, NJ), St. Davids--my home course (Wayne, PA) and Kennett Square's M-G today!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #24 on: August 09, 2002, 03:36:05 AM »
Henry:

And your thoughts on each are?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG
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