What is the Role of Municipal Golf????

[Kyle Harris]

Whoa Sean, where did I mention Blair?

I said GWB, not Tony Blair... frankly, the Labour Party and he have enough trouble of their own.

[George Pazin]

Perhaps some of the several hundred thousand Kurds and Iranians gassed by Saddam might disagree with you?

Every intelligence agency - and, interestingly enough, every Democrat presidential candidate - believed Saddam had WMDs and was pursuing further development. It's easy to say now that Iraq posed no security threat, but everything prior to March 2003 said otherwise.

As Lou said, we're so far apart on this that I don't think rational discussion is possible.

[Buck Wolter]

Kyle-
You sound much better informed than I am on all things AR but I can't see her thinking that there's much room for the Government to compete with the private sector -- there's not alot of gray area in what I've read from her. I think she'd see Municipal Golf as a slippery slope to facism.

Sean-
Iraq seems to be on a course to freedom and Venezuela to a Castro style dictatorship. You take Carter and I'll take GWB.

Buck

[Kyle Harris]

Buck,

You're right, it would be a slippery slope... but again, it's about ethics. There would need to be a defined line between government entering a market and government using it's ability to make and enforce laws to give it an advantage in a market. If the government were to use its powers to corner and squeeze out facilities that were better and cutting into the government's market for golf, that would be the abuse that Ayn Rand would be against... however, if the government entrance into the market forced other facilities to better themselves or perish, AND, on a level playing ground, or as level as possible... that, in my understanding of them, would be consistent with Objectivist ideals.

I see courses and facilities like Bethpage, and fear what would happen with privitization to such a facility. Granted, it's 20/20 hindsight and perhaps in the thirties when the facility was being built such an argument would be better placed. But as of now, it's hard for me to measure my values regarding government involvement and how much I value a course/facility like Bethpage. Keeping it under it's current systems maintains that facility that I value.

Huge conflict of interest, but something definately worth chewing on and at the core of this discussion I think.

[Matt_Ward]

Kyle:

Bethpage Black is now more of de facto semi-private course. Because of the attention the course gained from hosting the '02 US Open the conditions in access have changed since Tiger and the boys hit the scene.

If you are a New York resident the access issues for the Black is less so. If you live out-of-state the likelihood in securing a prime tee time (e.g. (9:00 AM on a Saturday for a foursome) is really thin. Playing Lotto may be a better bet.

Bethpage didn't have to be formally "privatized" -- it simply closed the window on what was done prior to all the fanfare the course received from the US Open. Things will never be the same as they were before.

Let me mention that privatization of courses in general would only drive the marginal players out of the game because of the desire to raise prices and increase the botton line.

Muni golf provides a steady alternative because the people who pay the freight are the taxpayers and you can count on them raising holy hell if rates were raised so high as to prevent them from being able top enjoy the recreational golf they seek.

[Kyle Harris]

Sean,

Nope, I am not going to claim that at all, just going to claim that it was on a laundry list of other reasons and probably a secondary or tertiary reason at that. It's easy to bring such issues to the forefront when all you hear are the same four or five sound clips over and over again, and the usage of those clips are misleading at that.

[Kyle Harris]

Matt,

I've done the Bethpage trip three times and I live in PA. Both times that I played the Black I was in the first group out and was the first ball in the first fairway each day. :-D

I have to kill the evening before in order to do it, but I get a full night's sleep in relative comfort in my car and get to play early.

I should also note that all my trips have been post '02 US Open.

[Matt_Ward]

Kyle:

Did you go as a single ?

If you did -- re-read what I posted.

[Kyle Harris]

Both times were with one other person, and once was the weekend. Not saying you're wrong, maybe I've been lucky since both times were in late August/Early September?

[George Pazin]

However, I can't think of one incidence of Americans exporting democracy (at least what I think of democracy) with success.

Germany.

Japan.

[Kyle Harris]

Sean,

Personally, I don't think the US would be any more effective or effecient in spending X resources on the Israeli conflict. Very hard for any government to come between what to some is a mission or mandate from God. If the Israelis with one of the best militaries in the world can't keep things in check, I doubt we could help any more than we already have.

[Matt_Ward]

Kyle:

Any one person can play Bethpage Black -- the same holds true for TOC through the daily lottery.

The broader issue I made and you failed to recognize is that access to the Black is de facto semi-private now. NY residents have a much easier time in playing the course. If you decide to play the Black as a foursome of non-state residents you'll need to spend more time than you as a single are able to accomplish now. Many people I know in this situation have simply forsaken playing the Black because of the near impossibility in getting any reasonable tee time.

The broader issue of muni golf's role is a simple one at Bethpage -- the park is set up to take care of NY residents first and foremost. That's their prerogative since NY residents front the money to keep the park operational. One of the advantages Bethpage has is the other courses in the facility. They are able to offer these courses at a much lower rate than their starship Black Course. However, if all of the courses were privatized you would likely find the rates of all the courses slowly but inevitably rise. Privatization sounds nice on paper but check out the results of American Golf Corporation when NYC leased their golf facilities to them a good bit of time ago. You will find what I just said happened.

[Kyle Harris]

Matt,

It sounds like we're saying the same thing. I meant by my posts that I was afraid of what privitization would do to a facility like Bethpage, and that it can be construed as a conflict of my values in being as such.

This May I'll be trying to get the Red and Green in during one day.

My apologies for not acknowledging your point regarding Bethpage's current situation. I guess in not bringing it up I meant to imply that I agreed with your analysis. I was just relating my own experiences and seeing if they were normal/pertinent etc.

[Matt_Ward]

Kyle:

When a company like American Golf Corporation came onto the scene the state of NYC public golf was at its lowest level. Clearly, the city could not manage or handle its own parks and the golf reflected that.

However, since AGC's involvement the nature of the golf has only marginally improved but the rates have not gone up marginally.

The idea that a private company will somehow be benevolent in its rate structure is truly naive for someone to believe. Once the private company comes in the prime motivation is to make as much dollars as is possible. The idea of "serving the public" (the mantra of what muni golf should follow) is thrown out the window and the bean counters come forward with new and creative ways to take even more money out of the pockets of those who must depend upon playing these type of courses.

It is for that reason why I favor muni golf as a recreational component and introduction to the game for the masses. The CCFAD types and others on the privately owned daily fee side see golfers as cash machines. Muni golf should see golfers as constituents simply looking for modest places to play and to enjoy what golf can offer.

[Kyle Harris]

Matt,

I know there has been cases of good coming from companies coming in and taking over the day to day management of public courses, at least in the Philadelphia area. Cobb's Creek has enjoyed significant improvements as have the other five Philadelphia public tracks. Another local muni (Middletown Country Club) has seen improved conditioning (and an attempt at a caddy program that ultimately failed, but still a noble effort) for only marginal increases in green fees.

While I am sure such good isn't as widespread as it should be, the fact is, it does happen.

I should note that I am proponent of Municipal Golf, as it is the reason I am where I am now both in my career and my life.

[Kyle Harris]

Sean,

Germany did have a "democracy..." the Weimar Republic... they elected Hitler...

[Kyle Harris]

I do what I can.

[RJ_Daley]

Since we smoked out all the liberals, conservatives, libertarians, and independents (I'll put myself in the latter if you don't mind ), perhaps we can attack the muni role from a more historical perspective and try to see what happened, and what may still be on the horizon...

My first question (which I don't know the answer to - perhaps Dan Wexler might) is how many of the earliest rudimentary courses that Bendelow laid out for Spalding, eventually became munis, then within 20-30 more years went into the NLE status as they were likely built at the edge of cities and towns in the 1900-25 era and then were swallowed by urban expansion and suburban sprawl to render the land more valuable than the operational economics of a course ever could be justified?  But, was that a viable model for the future?  (companys seeding the sport for mass consumption and turning over operations to munis)

The same could be said for the Langford and then later efforts of Bende in the American Park Builders efforts, many of which were just before the depression.  All that morphed into WPA depression era projects, with the federally managed depression recovery course operations defaulting to the local parks systems. (i.e. places like Brown Deer GC in Milwaukee)

The theme in the Spaulding Company seeding courses and promoting the game from scratch for future equipment sales and business was in my humble opinion, brilliant.  I don't think Spaulding ever had any intentions of becoming a roaring twenties golf course management company like todays Club Corp, Troon, AmGolf etc.  I think they always intended the courses to be taken over by municipal operations, and run for the enjoyment of the citizens, who would buy their equipment.

It is really a complex history.  We have to include R.B.Harris and his whole stable of followers' subsequent efforts in 50s-70s, if we are going to discuss the historical role and development of muni golf.  Didn't they focus properly on easy to maintain, efficient operations, so that citizens of all (most) working classes could play.  Weren't they hired by some pretty progressive municipalities.

In the future, where will muni golf be sponsored?  The ugly side of muni situations IMO are by the bureaucrats and local big wig power brokers that seem to have a mentality that they should get into the race with the CCFADs, overly spending the publics funds,  wrongly invading a market they don't belong in for the wrong intentions, setting those projects for economic failure.  Perhaps with schemes in the future that they will join their buddies in busting out the public expenditures effort and buying the property for cents on the original development dollar.  They are taking their eye off the ball of providing efficient and decent recreation for citizens.  

The heart warming side is the Wild Horse community efforts (not exactly a muni) and the sentiments behind First Tee.  Getting a worth while activity to people that otherwise wouldn't have a chance to enjoy, nor reap the social, physical, mentally refreshing aspects of a very popular game ought to be worthy of future pursuit in any discussion of quality of life in our society.

[Brad Swanson]

If it weren't for a municipal golf course in Ottumwa, Iowa  I probably woudn't have ever picked-up the game.  At $50 for an annual junior pass, (I figure I got in around 150+ rounds/summer), I got my money's worth and then some.  No pro, no driving range, no watered fairways (back then).  Those in the silver spoon set here likely have no clue what I'm talking about, but municipal golf changed my life.  Not everyone here comes from enough money to be club members or even foot the $$ for more expensive public golf.

Cheers,
Brad Swanson  

[Lou_Duran]

Brad,

Out from behind the microscope for a few minutes?  I hope that things are well at THE Ohio State University.

Like you, I really got interested in golf as a result of having affordable access to a publicly funded course.  My beloved
Scarlet was built with WPA funding, and the less than $100 annual student membership was a great bargain.

I don't put a university owned course operated for the benefit of its students, faculty, and employees in the same class as municipally owned CCFAD.  At least when I was there, the course was never in great shape and the moneys from memberships and green fees more than covered the maintenance.  To the best of my knowledge, Scarlet did not compete with the major clubs as most of these you could only get in with an invitation and some time on the waiting list.  It was also built during a time when the private sector was on its back, and these types of large, labor intensive projects were designed to get the economy going.  

[Cliff Hamm]

Lou..Why should university courses for the benifit of students, alumni, faculty, employees and often the public be any different than a muni for the benefit of residents?  It seems to me that universities have also moved in the direction of CCFAD or at least upscale designs.  Texas Tech, Purdue, among others are new designs that are not entry level.

[frank_D]

brother Rob Waldron

i think it is a mistake to combine the US v THEM mentality when assessing the place of the municipal golf course

i agree municipal courses may in some places create an UNFAIR advantage as against PRIVATE interests but those same private interests can simply invest and build a course elsewhere OR in the alternate if an existing course has been financially impacted can seek redress and compensation or commence certiori to reduce their real estate tax obligation as compensation

under the best arrangement i can see both working together like in WESTCHESTER COUNTY NY where municipals (some well maintained - some not - some famous sites (ie bethpage) - some obscure ) and private (with some of the most exclusive) on possibly the MOST EXPENSIVE property in the country - YET there is still new daily fee courses opening (and some planned as the MOST extravagant to come ! )

if a municipal is your envied competition maybe your own product needs another look

[A.G._Crockett]

Lou..Why should university courses for the benifit of students, alumni, faculty, employees and often the public be any different than a muni for the benefit of residents?  It seems to me that universities have also moved in the direction of CCFAD or at least upscale designs.  Texas Tech, Purdue, among others are new designs that are not entry level.

Cliff, you're dead right.
In fact, don't most university courses compete directly with CCFAD's?  Most have a very low fee/membership structure for students/faculty/employees, and a more market based structure for the paying public.  Also, as per an article in the current Links Magazine issue, "upgrading" through restoration or redesign is a common theme among the university courses that is aimed at making them more competitive in the local market place.  In short, I would think that the university courses would be virtually the same as munis, given that many (if not most) munis differentiate between residents and nonresidents in their fee structures.

[Jeff Goldman]

Brad,

To the best of my knowledge, Scarlet did not compete with the major clubs as most of these you could only get in with an invitation and some time on the waiting list.  It was also built during a time when the private sector was on its back, and these types of large, labor intensive projects were designed to get the economy going.  

Lou (sorry, I can't resist), when did you become a Keynesian??      

[Kyle Harris]

I suppose now we'll just cancel all College Football programs in markets with Professional Football... now if only Columbus had a pro team...

Oh wait... they do