News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What is the Role of Municipal Golf????
« Reply #150 on: February 28, 2005, 12:12:04 PM »
OK, so we agree.  The nature of the education system (ie, whether it's public or private won't cause a decrease in the quality of the teaching that students get from their non-public school teachers).  That's good.  Very good.

So then, we have a monopoly system that -- by definition -- costs more money than it needs to. Why not go to a system that does not?  The answer, obviously, is that those with monopoly power don't like giving it up.  So much for the "public good".  

Whoa, big fella!  To the extent that public education is a monopoly (which is arguable) it is YOUR definition that the product costs more than it should.  A for-profit monopoly engages in profit maximization, NOT maximum prices; thus Microsoft virtually gives away Windows on new computer purchases.  In any case, govt. monopolies are not for-profit anyway.
Secondly, our per-pupil expenditures in public education are generally well below the tuition charged by the better private schools, and comparable to the tuition charged by middle-tier private schools.  I assume we are not concerned with low-quality private schools, which do exist, at least in terms of test scores.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2005, 12:16:12 PM by A.G._Crockett »
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Kyle Harris

Re:What is the Role of Municipal Golf????
« Reply #151 on: February 28, 2005, 12:15:51 PM »
Ted,

Who's side would she be on? Excuse my cynicism, but most people I've known have trouble making the ethical assumptions needed to fully understand Ayn Rand or Objectivism.

Would love to hear your thoughts though...

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What is the Role of Municipal Golf????
« Reply #152 on: February 28, 2005, 12:22:05 PM »
A.G.,

Are suggesting that the AP test has a question like this?

Americans are: a) over-taxed; b) under-taxed; c) taxed just right; d) taxed lower than other industrialized countries; e) none of the above

If so, I fear for our kids.

There is a book whose title escapes me that goes into the history of the federal income tax.  It is nothing short of incredible how we have changed our collective minds about taxation through the years.  Shivas is absolutely right about picking your timeframe.

BTW, do you teach your kids about the evil of the huge budget deficit and how it spells doom by crowding out private investment?  Do you point out to your students that as a % of GDP it is well in the historical range?  Or is a comparison to GDP and a particular timeframe not appropriate in this instance?

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What is the Role of Municipal Golf????
« Reply #153 on: February 28, 2005, 12:26:42 PM »
Yeah for Ted!

Kyle -

No question where Ayn would stand on this. I'm curious to know why you think there is, and what the difficult ethical assumptions are to understand AR or Objectivism.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Ted Kramer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What is the Role of Municipal Golf????
« Reply #154 on: February 28, 2005, 12:30:27 PM »
Ted,

Who's side would she be on? Excuse my cynicism, but most people I've known have trouble making the ethical assumptions needed to fully understand Ayn Rand or Objectivism.

Would love to hear your thoughts though...

LOL.
I don't think that it takes a genius to figure out where she would stand based on this quote . . .

The ideal political-economic system is laissez-faire capitalism. It is a system where men deal with one another, not as victims and executioners, nor as masters and slaves, but as traders, by free, voluntary exchange to mutual benefit. It is a system where no man may obtain any values from others by resorting to physical force, and no man may initiate the use of physical force against others. The government acts only as a policeman that protects man's rights; it uses physical force only in retaliation and only against those who initiate its use, such as criminals or foreign invaders. In a system of full capitalism, there should be (but, historically, has not yet been) a complete separation of state and economics, in the same way and for the same reasons as the separation of state and church.

Ayn Rand is one of my heroes.

-Ted
« Last Edit: February 28, 2005, 12:31:57 PM by Ted Kramer »

Kyle Harris

Re:What is the Role of Municipal Golf????
« Reply #155 on: February 28, 2005, 12:32:20 PM »
George,

Lack of God is the major ethical assumption I've encountered that people have trouble with. Roark didn't believe in God and Dagny/Rearden/Galt et al couldn't understand His place in the order of man.

I don't think there is much of a debate as to who's side she'd be on either, however, I think her opinion MAY change a bit if she were a golfer and fully understanding of the system by which golf is successful.

Frankly, I don't see her supporting golf much...

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What is the Role of Municipal Golf????
« Reply #156 on: February 28, 2005, 12:34:25 PM »
A.G.,

Are suggesting that the AP test has a question like this?

Americans are: a) over-taxed; b) under-taxed; c) taxed just right; d) taxed lower than other industrialized countries; e) none of the above

If so, I fear for our kids.

There is a book whose title escapes me that goes into the history of the federal income tax.  It is nothing short of incredible how we have changed our collective minds about taxation through the years.  Shivas is absolutely right about picking your timeframe.

BTW, do you teach your kids about the evil of the huge budget deficit and how it spells doom by crowding out private investment?  Do you point out to your students that as a % of GDP it is well in the historical range?  Or is a comparison to GDP and a particular timeframe not appropriate in this instance?


Lou,
There is no such question; it would be a normative rather than positive question, and the AP exam is purely positive.  For the record, though, I never said that we were undertaxed.  I said that the idea that we are overtaxed is crap, and cannot be factually demonstrated.  I'll stand by that, either in an historical context, or a comparison with other industrialized nations.

It is a matter of fact that federal govt. spending right now (as a % of real GDP) is below the average of the past 20 yrs., and that tax revenues as a % of GDP have declined even more.  That is, in fact, where the current deficits come from.  I don't care what you do with that information as far as what a proposed remedy might be.

I do in fact teach "crowding out" as the real problem with deficits (as opposed to the "future generations paying our bills" stuff you normally hear), which has been part of the long free-response question on the AP Macro exam 12 of the past 14 years.  I also teach that as a % of GDP our deficit is not extremely high by current world standards; that is an appropriate reference.

BTW, I am still in favor of munis!
 :)
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Kyle Harris

Re:What is the Role of Municipal Golf????
« Reply #157 on: February 28, 2005, 12:35:09 PM »
Unfortunately for objectivism, the ideal of an objective economy is damn near impossible. You easily scoff at my question, but you don't answer it... stating it is obvious to see.

Well, Mr. Toohey, where would she stand?  :P

Ted Kramer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What is the Role of Municipal Golf????
« Reply #158 on: February 28, 2005, 12:36:37 PM »
Unfortunately for objectivism, the ideal of an objective economy is damn near impossible. You easily scoff at my question, but you don't answer it... stating it is obvious to see.

Well, Mr. Toohey, where would she stand?  :P

Is this directed at me?

-Ted

Kyle Harris

Re:What is the Role of Municipal Golf????
« Reply #159 on: February 28, 2005, 12:39:42 PM »
Ted,

Anybody who actually avoided the question. Just a playful jab...

I find this stuff fascinating and would love to hear your reasoning behind your answer. Just searcing for someone who actually understands and appreciates Ayn Rand as much as I do, as that is lacking in my age group... where altruism is in vogue.

The Toohey comment was more based in the non-commited non-answer that Ellsworth Toohey was a master of in Fountainhead.

Here's a question: What type of golf course do you think Howard Roark would build?


George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What is the Role of Municipal Golf????
« Reply #160 on: February 28, 2005, 12:40:34 PM »
I'd hope not, Ted, your answer was pretty clear cut.

Ayn wouldn't have a problem with golf. She would have a problem with government funded golf. Is that clear enough for you, Kyle?
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What is the Role of Municipal Golf????
« Reply #161 on: February 28, 2005, 12:43:11 PM »
Kyle -

The biggest problem most have with AR is understanding her desire for precision and clarity when speaking or writing. Altruism, selfishness, greed - these things (and others) have different meanings to her.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Kyle Harris

Re:What is the Role of Municipal Golf????
« Reply #162 on: February 28, 2005, 12:44:23 PM »
It's a start, but I feel there is a qualitative measure needed in order to make the argument complete...

For example:
What happens when you privatize Bethpage?

Ted Kramer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What is the Role of Municipal Golf????
« Reply #163 on: February 28, 2005, 12:47:08 PM »
Ted,

Anybody who actually avoided the question. Just a playful jab...

I find this stuff fascinating and would love to hear your reasoning behind your answer. Just searcing for someone who actually understands and appreciates Ayn Rand as much as I do, as that is lacking in my age group... where altruism is in vogue.

The Toohey comment was more based in the non-commited non-answer that Ellsworth Toohey was a master of in Fountainhead.

Here's a question: What type of golf course do you think Howard Roark would build?



If I may playfully respond . . .
I didn't avoid anything.
In my opinion her quote clearly states that she would prefer the gov't to be "less involved" if not "completely out of the picture" in terms of providing golf, or just about anything else besides protection, to the public.

-Ted

Kyle Harris

Re:What is the Role of Municipal Golf????
« Reply #164 on: February 28, 2005, 12:47:25 PM »
Quite true,

I've based several position papers off her definitions of greed, altruism and selfishness, needless to say I got some flak thrown at me because most of my readers failed to actually realize that words mean things. I suppose this is the root of my bitterness regarding misuse of Ayn Rand's epistimologies. I needed a bit more than "Ayn Rand would have supported this or would have thought this."

Apologies if my tone was condescending or confrontational.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What is the Role of Municipal Golf????
« Reply #165 on: February 28, 2005, 12:53:08 PM »
If there's one thing that Ayn would have supported, it's someone who is condescending and confrontational!

 ;D

Aren't you a Philly guy, Kyle? If so, first beer's on me when I come out for the US Am. Always happy to discuss AR.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Kyle Harris

Re:What is the Role of Municipal Golf????
« Reply #166 on: February 28, 2005, 12:55:07 PM »
Philly guy to the bone,

That'd be great George, I'll be attending the USAm too, maybe we could meet up there?

Ted Kramer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What is the Role of Municipal Golf????
« Reply #167 on: February 28, 2005, 12:56:21 PM »
Quite true,

I've based several position papers off her definitions of greed, altruism and selfishness, needless to say I got some flak thrown at me because most of my readers failed to actually realize that words mean things. I suppose this is the root of my bitterness regarding misuse of Ayn Rand's epistimologies. I needed a bit more than "Ayn Rand would have supported this or would have thought this."

Apologies if my tone was condescending or confrontational.

 :) fair enough.
And just for the record, I don't think that I have any business giving the impression that I am bright enough or well read enough to expound on Ms. Rand's philosophies. As far as I am concerned she was pure genius!!!    

-Ted

Kyle Harris

Re:What is the Role of Municipal Golf????
« Reply #168 on: February 28, 2005, 01:00:43 PM »
Ted,

Ayn Rand ushered in the concept of the modern novel, where the author took the extreme ends of an issue and had the characters that represented those ends interact with the "real world" as defined by the author.

Ayn Rand was a genius in that her definitions were so complete, the works became timeless and very much applicable to a lot of situations. This is why I read the Fountainhead, Atlas Shrugged and We the Living every year.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What is the Role of Municipal Golf????
« Reply #169 on: February 28, 2005, 01:57:03 PM »
And then we have the role of municipal golf.?
« Last Edit: February 28, 2005, 01:57:19 PM by Mike_Young »
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Kyle Harris

Re:What is the Role of Municipal Golf????
« Reply #170 on: February 28, 2005, 02:07:28 PM »
Sean,

Maybe the French don't like it because it was their aircraft we were shooting out of the skies in the Gulf War, and it's their guns that are shooting our soldiers...

As to GWB lying about the war... was that him, or the sound clips given to you by the media? I assume you are talking about WMD, et al.

Look at his actual speech transcripts before you claim to know his true intentions re: Iraq.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What is the Role of Municipal Golf????
« Reply #171 on: February 28, 2005, 02:15:58 PM »
Sean,

We must live in different worlds.  Your accusations, misrepresentations, and conclusions are so baseless and unfair that further dialogue is impossible.  The pundits are probably right.  The gap has so widened that even people of goodwill may not be able to bridge.  And for that I am saddened.


Buck Wolter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What is the Role of Municipal Golf????
« Reply #172 on: February 28, 2005, 02:24:33 PM »
I believe Fountainhead is the best Golf Course Architecture book ever written.

As to where AR would come down on Muni Golf I found this review
"...Rand so despised socialism and collectivist thinking that she leapt to the furthest extreme possible to become the champion of unbridled capitalism, the rights of the individual at the expense of the community, and the diminution of all regulation by the state, with the exception of a judicial system and the control of crime. " Hmmm.

Sean-
The only thing worse than President Carter is Ex-President Carter. What he did in Venezuela was unconscionable, he should be an enemy of the State. You need to quit listening to so much NPR, BBC, Radio France or whatever propaganda you're getting. You sound like a guy getting talking points every morning from Dean/Moore/Soros.

Buck
Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience -- CS Lewis

Kyle Harris

Re:What is the Role of Municipal Golf????
« Reply #173 on: February 28, 2005, 02:30:28 PM »
Ideally though, a government operating a golf course isn't legally abridging the rights of operation of other golf courses... it's joining the market albiet on somewhat skewed grounds.

Now, if the government in question would only allow development of government operated courses... that's a different story.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What is the Role of Municipal Golf????
« Reply #174 on: February 28, 2005, 02:41:18 PM »
Sean, Sean, Sean - you need to stop mainlining Michael Moore and start thinking for yourself. :)

What's your factual evidence for the media being owned by Republicans?
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04