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George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Is it really necessary to take potshots at others...
« on: February 15, 2005, 09:45:57 AM »
in every thread?

It's getting tiresome and childish.

I hope by the time Ran deletes this thread that everyone will look inside himself and think about what brought us all together and understand that we can each have different opinions, approaches and motivations and still respect each other. It doesn't mean we have to have agreement and backslapping, but I think some modicum of respect without the snide remarks is in order.

No smiley this time, unless someone can tell me which of those smileys reflects disappointment.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2005, 09:49:02 AM by George Pazin »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

THuckaby2

Re:Is it really necessary to take potshots at others...
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2005, 10:00:48 AM »
Screw you George.  Steelers suck!  Pirates blow themselves!  Oakmont is an overrated piece of shit!  Black Mesa is the greatest course ever conceived and anyone who doesn't see that is dumber than a doorknob!

 ;D ;D ;D

Lightening up sounds good to me.  And I am not talking to YOU, obviously.  You are just the messenger.

On the other hand, when has this site - and it's predecessors - ever NOT had a certain amount of potshots?

TH

Brent Hutto

Re:Is it really necessary to take potshots at others...
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2005, 10:04:54 AM »
George,

I agree completely. For my part, no more off-topic sarcasm in discussions of which I'm not a key participant. And I hope to show more restraint in the threads in which I am closely involved.

It's funny how the sort of thing that can be all in good fun in small doses gradually takes on a life of it on to the detriment of ones real purpose in being a member of the forum.

A_Clay_Man

Re:Is it really necessary to take potshots at others...
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2005, 10:10:30 AM »
George, It'd be helpful to site any recent examples of what you're calling potshots.

Is it possible that the discourse is stimulated when passions are enflamed? Similar to the flask in the back pocket theory, yet different.  Aren't their copies of a certain book selling on Ebay for hundreds of dollars that many felt where potshots?

It's evident that complacency breeds mediocrity, or do it?

THuckaby2

Re:Is it really necessary to take potshots at others...
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2005, 10:11:19 AM »
Brent:  good points.  Only there is a fine line between self-censorship and restraint and having fun.  I'd hate it if this site became SO rigid that I couldn't tell George the Steelers suck (even though I don't believe that).

One thing DOES need to be taken to heart:  one can only use sarcasm and what I call shit-giving with people with whom he has a solid friendship first.  It's fine and dandy to say "I meant it in good humor and you should have understood that"... But if you have to say that, well... the receiver obviously did not understand it that way.  

So Brent you are right in one sense - I think one ought to err on the side of caution before one makes shit-giving comments.

On the other hand, I feel safe in saying the Steelers suck to George.  Hell we've only met in person once, but it's funny how not much face to face time is required to achieve the friendship level such that shit can be given.

I feel safe in saying ANYTHING to Dave Schmidt, as he can and should to me....

I don't feel this way with everyone though - I am human and my skin isn't elephant-hide thick...

So I know how this goes.

TH

Brent Hutto

Re:Is it really necessary to take potshots at others...
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2005, 10:15:13 AM »
The thing that brought the issue to mind for me yesterday was when I found myself interjecting a totally off-topic bit of general sarcasm into a topic that I had not contributed to. I was reading the responses and a comment that seemed witty at the moment popped into mind so I posted it. That just adds to the noise level with no possible benefit (and it wasn't particularly funny, in fact). Just a sloppy habit on my part that needed a bit of pruning back.

THuckaby2

Re:Is it really necessary to take potshots at others...
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2005, 10:18:26 AM »
Brent:  OK, makes sense.  But I'll take 25 of your saracastic fun asides over 50 rigidly serious posts about arcane issues in golf course architecture....

But that is likely just me.  I guess most people want the 50 rigidly serious posts.  So you're right, best to err on that side.  Methinks I need to take that to heart a bit also.

Nah.  What the hell am I thinking?  I couldn't do it even if I tried.

 ;D

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is it really necessary to take potshots at others...
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2005, 10:34:08 AM »
I don't want rigidly serious posts - I seriously doubt anyone does.

I'll try to create an example. I have had discussions at length with Matt Ward about Black Mesa (Huck's favorite course listed above). We differ greatly on our opinion of this course, specifically as it relates to high handicappers. We have argued about this on the public side of the site and the private side of the site. Some of it has even gotten kind of heated. I don't think either of us even remotely influenced the other's opinion. There is nothing wrong with any of that.

If I were posting on a mildly related thread, say about some other desert course, and I said something like "yeah, it would be nice if that long hitting guy in NJ had a clue about high handicappers", that would be an unwarrranted potshot that only serves to lessen the site.

Read what I've written on virtually any of the purist threads - disagreement is fine, disagreement is needed.

Potshots aren't disagreement, they are childish.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

THuckaby2

Re:Is it really necessary to take potshots at others...
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2005, 10:41:18 AM »
George:  understood.  But if it were you and me having this debate - which we did, about Black Mesa - I'd be somewhat bummed if you DIDN'T make a comment to the effect of "well what the hell does a short fat California supposed to be low-handicapper know about higher handicappers from Pittsburgh anyway."

And that's my point.  Time and a place for everything.  So yes, with Matt, you were likely wise to keep it on the higher plane.  One can learn a lot from him, even if one disagrees with him (as I do all the time).  And perhaps with him, these potshots detract rather than add.

On the other hand, there is a place for friends having fun with friends, no?

In any case it is best to err on the serious side, I guess.  Why does a thread like this make me a bit sad, though?

TH

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is it really necessary to take potshots at others...
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2005, 10:45:28 AM »
On that thread it would be fine. Repeatedly on multiple other threads is beyond the pale, IMHO.

This has nothing to do with humor and everything to do with respecting others' efforts, even if you disagree with them.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

THuckaby2

Re:Is it really necessary to take potshots at others...
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2005, 10:49:37 AM »
OK George, I get it.

But it's like I said as well:  time and place for everything.  And yes, a little does go a long way.

I just do get scared when censorship is called for.  Oh, I am all for respecting others efforts even if one disagrees with them; that is fundamental courtesy.

I just don't see many transgressions of that happening here - not compared to other places on the internet, anyway.  You ought to go to a college basketball discussion group some time... This place is positively monk-like compared to those.

Then again, I tend to stay out of all threads that feature the word "purist".  Perhaps that explains my light attitude?

 ;)

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is it really necessary to take potshots at others...
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2005, 10:53:15 AM »
George, whether they are witty rye little potshots attempting to point out flaws in someone's offered opinions with humor, or great essays of studious writing talent, the critique is essential in a intellectual discussion, IMHO.  Yet, as you seem to point out, a potshot can sting, particularly if aimed at one who is not prepared for it.  

I guess I might be one of those who recently was chastened for an attempt at a humorous potshot at a relatively new poster to this group, when he courageously put up a routing schematic of a school project.  My potshot was not meant to be malicious in the least, yet another poster took offense.  I hope I explained myself to the gentleman in a follow-up post.

Perhaps that is why netiqette has always warned those wishing to enter discussion groups that the "newbie" should read the discussion board for a while and try to get a sense of the personalities, before jumping into the fray.  Obviously, I know you to be a very wise and thoughtful poster because I have been happily reading you thoughts for years.  I wouldn't take offense to anything you say, because I know you to be a gentleman.  That along the lines that Huck points out...

I think you have to admit that GCA is one of the real shining stars of the INternet in terms of long running and substantive on-going discussion of an artistically oriented and historical topic that can at times become very subtle and nuanced.  We often see gentlemen (so rare the ladies have joined in) who are really similar in passion for the subject, get to steaming loggerheads over subtleties.   That is intellectual discourse, IMO.  That is how we learn.

The real mark of a serious gentleman or lady who wishes to advance the topic and body of knowledge is the one that can stand in the fire, subject their work or thoughts to scrutiny, and have enough confidence and commitment to suffer a few slings and arrows.  Further, the one that can take someone elses potshots or reasoned criticism to heart and change their point of view indicates the true scholar of the subject.

It sort of reminds me of the recent advent in our modern age of grade inflation at the so-called hallowed halls of higher learning, as has been exposed at places like Harvard.  Professors are reportedly loath to give anything below a B.  Where are the John Houseman figures of this age?  Do they all have to be Mr Novaks?  (warning, time senstitive reference there... ;D ::) )

I think we long time posters here all have seen where an individual sometimes goes too far in relentless potshots.  The trouble is, some of those gents that are notorious for relentless onsloughts of criticism and potshots, know their beans, and back up what they say.  That is all we can hope for, rather than the blithering idiots that occasionally have wandered through here, fired up some boorish posts, and then left, thankfully.  Some I believe were even IP banned by Ran, also thankfully.  You know who they were...

I say, load em up, and fire away... just try to use an emoticon once in a while to show collegiality and respect to the group who collectively give us an audience and mission to advance the knowledge of the main topic, GCA. :)
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

ForkaB

Re:Is it really necessary to take potshots at others...
« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2005, 10:59:57 AM »
Dick is right

There is crap written on this site (even by yours truly! :o) and it should be cryit down.  Just one excedption--"Everybody Sucks up to Huckabees" ;)

JakaB

Re:Is it really necessary to take potshots at others...
« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2005, 11:00:04 AM »
I think it would be nice to see Huck limit himself to something like five posts a day...I'm just a little fed up with his constant yapping on about nothing.

THuckaby2

Re:Is it really necessary to take potshots at others...
« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2005, 11:05:06 AM »
JK - no chance my friend.  And sorry, but you too have reached that "friend" status where very little you say can piss me off.  Oh, I surely don't want to challenge you, because with your creativity I am sure you could find SOMETHING that does so.  Just do realize you're gonna have to work harder than this.

TH

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is it really necessary to take potshots at others...
« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2005, 11:20:07 AM »
Be careful Huck, Barney might make you his cherry shot of the day on his blog! :o ;D
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

THuckaby2

Re:Is it really necessary to take potshots at others...
« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2005, 11:23:17 AM »
Be careful Huck, Barney might make you his cherry shot of the day on his blog! :o ;D

That's what I meant by saying I surely don't want to challenge him.   ;D

JakaB

Re:Is it really necessary to take potshots at others...
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2005, 11:29:03 AM »
RJ,

I'm just trying to give Huck some friendly advice,  I think the guy has alot to contribute here but he often waters it down with his ongoing muckity muck to a point that everything he says resembles the ramblings of a twelve year old girl.  It's pretty and everything but there just isn't anything to hold on to...


THuckaby2

Re:Is it really necessary to take potshots at others...
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2005, 11:31:03 AM »
RJ,

I'm just trying to give Huck some friendly advice,  I think the guy has alot to contribute here but he often waters it down with his ongoing muckity muck to a point that everything he says resembles the ramblings of a twelve year old girl.  It's pretty and everything but there just isn't anything to hold on to...



JK:

And I appreciate the advice.  I shall take it to heart.  I am the first to admit I do tend to ramble.  But I also believe my good outweighs my bad.

There's just no way in god's green earth I am going to be limited to five posts a day, on any day I am near a computer anyway.  But take heart, weekends are nearly always Huckaby-free.

TH

JakaB

Re:Is it really necessary to take potshots at others...
« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2005, 11:35:35 AM »
Huck,

How about fifty posts a week....do you think you could work with that..

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is it really necessary to take potshots at others...
« Reply #20 on: February 15, 2005, 11:37:18 AM »
George is not asking for censorship.  He is simply asking that we treat each other with respect.  Moreover, I don't believe he is asking that we refrain from the good natured needling that inevitably arises when friends engage in argument over a long period of time.  In my view, those who are unable to laugh at themselves are likely to be both boring and dangerous.
      However, recently there have been a number of posts where the invective has risen well beyond the level of friendly kidding and has bordered on personal attacks.  While none of us should take ourselves too seriously and overreact to such statements, by the same token we should all be cognizant that the success of the board depends on our ability to continue to talk to each other.  This is not a call for censorship or political correctness.  It is an appeal to something far more old fashioned; something we used to call good manners.
     Before I begin to sound too much like a little old lady ( how's that for being politically incorrect?) let me add that personal attacks as a rule don't add anything to an argument.  To the contrary they generally reflect frustration and detract from the message being delivered.  In my days as a debater and in the courtroom I have welcomed such attacks because it usually means the other side has nothing important to say.
     As for me, call me anything you like.  I have a thick skin and I've probably heard it before.

TEPaul

Re:Is it really necessary to take potshots at others...
« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2005, 11:39:04 AM »
GeorgeP:

Generally I agree with the things you say on here but perhaps not this time. If by potshots you're referring to the interchanges recently betwen the likes of myself and perhaps Wayne Morrison with Tom MacWood I don't agree about potshots. Sure it's been harsh at times but in my opinion that emanates for Tom MacWood's unwillingness or maybe inablity to defend the things he says on here, his own opinions but particularly one fact he presented that he had proof for.

That of course is Tom MacWood's statement of Crump's suicide. The story behind how he thinks he established that fact is a recent one that all in all could be termed nothing more than really messy at this point. Essentially the man he claimed to me told him he has proof of that has vociferously denied ever saying that to Tom MacWood. That may be a situation that never does have clear resolution, at least not on here.

But the primary reason I may've gotten a bit rough on here with Tom that caused others to worry about potshots is that Tom will not discuss on here why he thinks a Crump suicide rather than sudden death from poison from a tooth abscess has any significance whatsoever regarding the architecture of PV, who did what and whats been attributed to whom.

I think that unwllingness to respond effectively to an opinion or statement like that is the reason things have gotten a bit rough. This is not a personal attack on Tom though, only some tough questioning about his statement and his unwillingness or inabilty to answer questions about it.

By the way, we both have spoken to Ran about all this in the last few days, he's aware of it and as I hoped he would, Ran said go ahead and stick to tough questioning if you want to, because ultimately that's what he thinks GOLFCLUBATLAS.com is all about, and should be. That's what Ran Morrissett wants it to be and always has.

Tom MacWood apparently wants to tell a story about Crump, probably the manner in which he died and PVGC's creation evolution. I say let him do it---I encourage him to do it, I just told Ran that, and I hope he does a great job of it!

But if he doesn't it's my hope that I will be here to critique it because there's one thing I'm absolutely 100% sure of and that is that Tom MacWood does not know the creation evolution of PVGC anywhere near as well as I do and he never will unless he goes there for his first time and begins to understand that golf course IN PERSON as well as I do.

Sure he can use photographs from back then against today or any time but that will never remotely take the place of about 25 years of experience there. That's one of the most important and fundamental points I can make and I will continue to with anyone who thinks otherwise, including Tom MacWood.

I know someone like David Moriarty will probably chime in here and call the fact that I say constantly that MacWood has  never been there is a personal potshot at MacWood.

It's nothing of the kind, and I feel the same way about his analysis of the Aronimink bunker project---it's a most important opinion of mine that I firmly believe is a virtual necessity if one wants to write a comprehensively accurate creation evolution story of any golf course.

If that's a potshot, then I've taken them, and I'll continue to with Ran Morrissett's encouragement!
« Last Edit: February 15, 2005, 11:47:48 AM by TEPaul »

THuckaby2

Re:Is it really necessary to take potshots at others...
« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2005, 11:41:51 AM »
JK:

I'll do that when you promise to make every one of your posts strictly about architecture, and unfailingly positive in tone.

Does the world really want that from either of us?  Would that be a net positive?  Sure as hell not, as I see it...

We all have our roles.  Yours is to be an intelligent eccentric who hits at the heart of matters with laser-like precision.  Mine is to be a nice guy who knows a little about the Bay Area but not much about other places, though has been around a little and is willing to comment when asked.

If this is so wrong, well... I don't really care.  But I do understand the critique, and will be careful not to overwhelm with volume.  But jeez, you have to believe me, there are SO many things I stay the hell out of as it is... don't begrudge me having fun with friends, and commenting on the few things in which I can add some knowledge.

TH
« Last Edit: February 15, 2005, 11:47:10 AM by Tom Huckaby »

THuckaby2

Re:Is it really necessary to take potshots at others...
« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2005, 11:43:34 AM »
George is not asking for censorship.  He is simply asking that we treat each other with respect.  Moreover, I don't believe he is asking that we refrain from the good natured needling that inevitably arises when friends engage in argument over a long period of time.  In my view, those who are unable to laugh at themselves are likely to be both boring and dangerous.

Shel - understood.  I was just trying to point out that it's a very fine line, tough to determine... and we do continue to need people who can laugh at themselves.

But sage counsel and wisdom, once again.

TH

JohnV

Re:Is it really necessary to take potshots at others...
« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2005, 11:49:48 AM »
When I started work at Intel in 1978, they told us about a policy in the company called "Constructive Confrontation."  This policy was one where you could disagree as strongly as you felt was needed as long as you did it in a way that was not offensive and that the confrontation was intended to move the discussion forward as opposed to simply being confrontive.

Here is a quote from an article in Fast Company about Intel's policy:
Quote
Intel takes ideas seriously too -- so much so that it subjects them to a trial by fire. The company even includes a segment on "constructive confrontation" in the training that it offers all new hires. The class teaches employees how to rip into one another's ideas without actually ripping into one another. "We have this common way to disagree, and that gives us speed," says Michael Fors, 37, a comanager of Intel University and an instructor for the course. "We don't spend time being defensive or taking things personally. We cut through all of that and get to the issues."

I think that this would be a useful concept here.  Of course, teasing should still be acceptable.